I have a question I really need answered...

Under the idea the chords of a specific key are derived from the formula 1,4 and 5, does that make them ALL minor? Like, the Key of C, just for simplicity... Cm, Fm, Gm? I know there are other chords in each key, meaning you take each degree in the scale and make a chord out of them, using that note as the root, though only using the notes in the specific scale to make a chord... It doesnt matter what type... Im talking about the 1, 4 and 5 chords.... I would really like to know.

Originally Posted by: pizzicatopickerUnder the idea the chords of a specific key are derived from the formula 1,4 and 5, does that make them ALL minor?[/QUOTE]
The standard triad chords for a key are derived from building a chord containing a 1st, 3rd & 5th relationship on every note of a scale using only notes from that scale.
[QUOTE=pizzicatopicker]Like, the Key of C, just for simplicity... Cm, Fm, Gm?

Right.

But of course you can alter the scale in order to get different chords. This is the reason the harmonic minor scale exists. In order to get a major V chord (with a good leading tone!) - in C minor this results in a G major chord (or any G with a major 3rd, like G7) you need to have the major 7th degree - in C minor a B natural, instead of a B flat. And melodic minor also raises the 6th degree so you get an A instead of A flat and therefore a major IV chord.

Hope this helps.

Originally Posted by: CSchlegelThe standard triad chords for a key are derived from building a chord containing a 1st, 3rd & 5th relationship on every note of a scale using only notes from that scale.

Right.

But of course you can alter the scale in order to get different chords. This is the reason the harmonic minor scale exists. In order to get a major V chord (with a good leading tone!) - in C minor this results in a G major chord (or any G with a major 3rd, like G7) you need to have the major 7th degree - in C minor a B natural, instead of a B flat. And melodic minor also raises the 6th degree so you get an A instead of A flat and therefore a major IV chord.

Hope this helps.

I know that chords are ESSENTIALLY based off of the 1st, 3rd, 5th degrees, unless it's suspended, for example, and the 3rd is replaced by it's 4th... I was talking about the chords that make up the key, not what makes up the chords... Thanks though, what you said helped.

Sounds like you want to know the difference between a Major Key and a Minor Key, why they are relatve, and why they are different....


While the I-IV-V chord of a Major Key all Major chords...they are not all Minor chord in a Minor Key.

The reason being is the the V chord HAS to have a leading tone of a Cadence(a M3 of the V chord moving a half-step to the Root of the Im chord).

So a song in the Key of C Minor would have i-iv-V or Cm-Fm-G7.

Think about it this way...

You probably know about Relative Minors...How the C Major scale and the A Minor scale are related...

Looking through a sheet of music, a song with a Key Signature of no sharps or flats is the Key of C Major, right? But, relatively it could be the Key of A Minor, right?

Well, what makes it the Key of C Major or the Key of A Minor?

In either of those Keys you have C D E F G A B C, right? So what's the difference?

How you find out which your dealing with is, you look through the sheet to find ANY accidentals. If you find a G# note (which would be the M3 of the V chord in the Key of A Minor) it's a good indication that it's the Key of A Minor and not C Major.

It's the cadence (M7 to Root resolution) that determines the Major or Relative Minor Key.

IOW, the V chord has to have a M3 note in it to resolve a half-step higher to the Root of the I chord...be it a I or a Im. In a nutshell...the V chord HAS TO BE Major and resolve to a I or a Im chord.

Try it, play (and make sure you repeat because the V chord to the I chord is where it should resolve):

||: Am | Am | Dm | Dm | Em | Em :||

Kind of flat sounding, nothing telling it Cm is DEFINTELY the Im chord. No strong cadence from the Em back to the Am.

Now try (and make sure you repeat!):

||: Am | Am | Dm | Dm | E | E :||

You should hear the final movement of the M3 (G#) in the E chord moving to the Root (A) of the Am chord.

The second progression is in the Key of A Minor. The first progression is technically still in the Key of C Major.

So, any music that has an accidental of the M7 of the Relative Minor chord is in the Relative Minor Key as opposed to the original Major Key.

Scale wise...

The Minor scale has R 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 R (For A Minor: A B C D E F G A)

There is NO G# in the A Minor scale.

So to get this cadence, leading tone, or strong resolution...you can look at either the A Harmonic Minor scale or the A Melodic Minor scale. Preferrably the A Harmonic Minor scale for right now.

How does this all pan out, or why, or when do you use the A Harm Min?

The Harm Min has these Intervals: R 2 b3 4 5 b6 M7 R (A Harm Min: A B C D E F G# A)

Look that scale has EVERY note n the A Minor scale but replaces the b7 with the M7, or the G# note, the M7 of the Am chord.

So, now look at that progression in the Key of A Minor again:

||: Am | Am | Dm | Dm | E | E :||

For the Am and Dm chords, just play around with the A Minor scale, but for the E chord play A Harm Min over it!

You'll hear a COMMON resolution that's been used for centuries. You'll hear how the Harm Min scale resolves to the A Minor scale just as you did the E chord resolving to the Am chord.

All in all a Major Key is a Key using the Major scale, but a Minor Key is a Key using the Natural Minor, Harmonic Minor, and/or Melodic Minor scale.

Hopefully this will help you see how a Major and Relative Minor Key aren't really exactly the same. But, you'll be able to dechiper when you're dealing with one or the other.

Based on the original question about I, IV, V chords, I would like to add something that might aid in its understanding.

Firstly, there is such a thing called 'Funtional Harmony', which is your I, IV, V chord. I- means the 1st degree chord; IV- means the 4th degree chord; and V- means the fifth degree chord. If it were applied in the key of C major, the chords are C major (I), F major (IV), and G major (V).

In the same way, if we look at its relative minor (which is the 6th degree of the major scale relative to the root), then we get a functional harmony of vi, ii, iii. Therefore we have A minor, D minor, and E minor. Its the same as i, iv, v if we start with the note A (A,B,C,D,E,F,G), which still gives you A minor, D minor, and E minor in a I, IV, V progression.

Therefore, all the chords in the functional harmony have the same tonality (major or minor) in its basic triad construction.

Lastly, to have a better grasp of the idea of progressions and fuctional harmony, you need to know about the two approaches when studying modes. These are the Relative (or Derivative) Approach and the Parallell Approach.

For simplicity, lets just use the key of C for examples.

In the Relative Approach, modes are derived at different starting points of the scale. In other words, the different modes of scale have the same notes. The Parallell Approach, the other hand, has the same root note but they are of different scales. Let me illustrate:

Relative Approach (Key of C):
Ionian :C - D - E - F - G - A - B
Dorian :D - E - F - G - A - B - C
Phrygian :E - F - G - A - B - C - D
Lydian :F - G - A - B - C - D - E
Mixolydian :G - A - B - C - D - E - F
Aeolian :A - B - C - D - E - F - G
Locrian :B - C - D - E - F - G - A

Parallell Approach:
Ionian :C - D - E - F - G - A - B
Dorian :C - D - Eb - F - G - A -Bb
Phrygian :C - Db - Eb - F - G - Ab -Bb
Lydian :C - D - E - F# - G - A -B
Mixolydian :C - D - E - F - G - A -Bb
Aeolian :C - D - Eb - F - G - Ab -Bb
Locrian :C - Db - Eb - F - Gb - Ab -Bb

Well, I hope this has been beneficial.

Originally Posted by: gennationWhile the I-IV-V chord of a Major Key all Major chords...they are not all Minor chord in a Minor Key.
[/quote]
This is strange. gennation, your posts are usually well-done, informative and accurate. But this contains a little incorrect info.

Using the notes from the natural minor scale, one does get a minor five chord. That is WHY a key written in a minor key must have an accidental on the seventh scale degree when a five chord with a major 3 is desired.

This is why the natural minor scale (the standard of the key signature of a minor piece) is different from the harmonic minor scale. The harmonic scale is altered in order to get that major 7th as a proper leading tone to the root.

Originally Posted by: gennationThe reason being is the the V chord HAS to have a leading tone of a Cadence(a M3 of the V chord moving a half-step to the Root of the Im chord).
[/quote]
No, it doesn't have to. This is a choice that the composer or performer-improviser makes. I would say it is better to have at a cadence as it makes the music more harmonically rich & melodically goal-directed. But in the context of the overall piece not every single 7th scale degree must be, or even ought to be raised in minor keys.

Consider that typical practice of classical composers was to use the natural minor flatted 7th to modulate to relative major. For example, if you are in A minor and you want to modulate to relative major, C major, the five chord to use is G. Now if you are resolving back to A minor as the root at the end of a phrase, then of course, it's better to have the G sharp!

But also, there are many examples of great music using the natural minor 7th in the middle of a phrase saving the poignant, strong sound of the raised 7th until it is time for the cadence.

The rest of your post has a bunch of great info, as usual. So I am not trying to be a hair splitting maniac trying to start a fight. :) This is just an issue I see every now and then with students of advanced theory. So I wanted to clarify the issue.
[QUOTE=gennation]
IOW, the V chord has to have a M3 note in it to resolve a half-step higher to the Root of the I chord...be it a I or a Im. In a nutshell...the V chord HAS TO BE Major and resolve to a I or a Im chord.

This is true - at a cadence point - if the music is returning to the root of the home key, then the very definition of "to resolve" necessitates the raised 7th.
[QUOTE=gennation]
So to get this cadence, leading tone, or strong resolution...you can look at either the A Harmonic Minor scale or the A Melodic Minor scale. Preferrably the A Harmonic Minor scale for right now.

And you even make this point here: the scale is altered.

Again, no hard feelings or anything, please! Just a minor detail I wanted to set straight. Please continue to contribute your quality content.

Yes, it has been enlightening, though I'll admit I already knew the theory of how chords and keys (and their formulas) are derived from scales.... Some of the information is still slightly confusing, however... For instance, what is a Cadence, A leading tone, and, especailly, what is the difference between a scale and a [U]mode[/U]? People tell me that they are the same thing, though I dont know why that they would be called two different things... Currently, I'm under the impression that Modes are more about the [U]intervals[/U] of scales, not the specific degrees of each particular scale. I'm not frustrated at all, becuase I really want an understanding of theory, because, after all, it's beyond important; It's essential.

Originally Posted by: pizzicatopickerwhat is a Cadence[/quote]
A cadence is the ending of a harmonic progression. Ending a phrase on a five chord is a half cadence; ending on a one chord is a full cadence. There are further disticntions. Wikipedia is frequently a good source for defintions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadence_%28music%29

From complex classical melodies, themes down to traditional nursery rhymes the idea of a cadence is crucial. From Beethoven's sym. 9 the "Ode To Joy" theme, the first phrase is the "question phrase" and ends on a five chord and is thus a half candence:

E|-0----1--3--|-3--1--0-----|---------0--|-0--------|
B|------------|----------3--|-1----3-----|------3---|
G|-0----------|-------------|------------|-0----0---|
D|------------|-0-----0-----|-2----------|----------|
A|-3----------|-2-----------|-3----------|-3----2---|
E|------------|-------3-----|------------|----------|
I V I I V

Then, the "answer phrase" ends on a I and is thus a full or "authentic" cadence.

E|-0----1--3--|-3--1--0-----|---------0--|-----------|
B|------------|----------3--|-1----3-----|-3----1----|
G|-0----------|-------------|------------|-----------|
D|------------|-0-----0-----|-2----------|-3----2----|
A|-3----------|-2-----------|-3----------|------3----|
E|------------|-------3-----|------------|-3---------|
I V I V I


Originally Posted by: pizzicatopickerA leading tone[/quote]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leading-tone

Usually the leading tone is the major 7th note of a scale. It "leads" the ear to the one or root of the scale. But the flat 2 (a half step above the root instead of below) can also be used as a leading tone. Especially in jazz - tritone substitution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone_substitution and certain classical-romantic styles - Neapolitan sixth http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neapolitan_sixth and the augmented 6th http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augmented_sixth_chord .

Before you think that's "way too complicated" :p. Consider that you've heard it a million times in blues songs that end with a big flat 2 chord - as a substitution for the five - then a 1 root chord. Or in metal songs that use the flat 5 and flat 2 chord all over the place. These are very simple straightforward examples of using tritone subs, augmented 6ths and Neapolitan chords.
[QUOTE=pizzicatopicker], and, especailly, what is the difference between a scale and a [U]mode[/U]?

A scale is a series of notes spaced at specific intervals between an octave. A mode is using each note of a scale as it's own temporary "root" or reference point.

So a scale is more fundamental. Here's an analogy: Different scales are completely different objects. A mode is merely a different perspective on the same object (the scale you are making modes out of). Modes are derived from scales.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_scale
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode
[QUOTE=pizzicatopicker]I'm not frustrated at all, becuase I really want an understanding of theory, because, after all, it's beyond important; It's essential.

Great attitude. :) Hope these answers help.