Changing keys within a song

well, most of what can be said about how to change keys within a song has been said, but for good practice try these two pieces...

"Blue Bossa"- (suggested version by Pat Martino), which has a moderate but noticable key change at the start of the ninth measure of the melody

"I Love Paris"- (suggested version by Louis Armstront), which has a very noticable key change at the start of the twenty-fifth measure of the melody

for more practice, i would suggest getting "The Real Book", quite possibly the greatest collection of jazz pieces ever culminated and transcribed for guitar... Blue Bossa and I Love Paris are both in there, along with many others that have significant key changes to check out

Originally Posted by: niccar113well, most of what can be said about how to change keys within a song has been said, but for good practice try these two pieces...

"Blue Bossa"- (suggested version by Pat Martino), which has a moderate but noticable key change at the start of the ninth measure of the melody

"I Love Paris"- (suggested version by Louis Armstront), which has a very noticable key change at the start of the twenty-fifth measure of the melody

for more practice, i would suggest getting "The Real Book", quite possibly the greatest collection of jazz pieces ever culminated and transcribed for guitar... Blue Bossa and I Love Paris are both in there, along with many others that have significant key changes to check out

I am not much into jazz, but an example of the key changes from the songs you mentioned would work for study. Do you know the sequences of the notes in the measures noted above? If so, if you dont mind write the notes in order of play along with string numbers. Those interested could get a basic grasp of your suggestion this way if their like me not able to locate the songs your talking about.
I myself would like to try applying these techniques to metal, and hard rock applications. Jazzing up my metal, I dont know,worth a try.

Originally Posted by: axemaster911I am not much into jazz, but an example of the key changes from the songs you mentioned would work for study. Do you know the sequences of the notes in the measures noted above? If so, if you dont mind write the notes in order of play along with string numbers. Those interested could get a basic grasp of your suggestion this way if their like me not able to locate the songs your talking about.
I myself would like to try applying these techniques to metal, and hard rock applications. Jazzing up my metal, I dont know,worth a try.

jazz and metal are the exact same thing

Originally Posted by: Hambergjazz and metal are the exact same thing

This way of thinking could get you injured in some circles. You must me messing with me. There are 12 notes in music, thats where the similarity ends. Thats all I have to say about that. Rock on.

Originally Posted by: axemaster911This way of thinking could get you injured in some circles. You must me messing with me. There are 12 notes in music, thats where the similarity ends. Thats all I have to say about that. Rock on.

he means they are the same in terms of how you transition a key change. not that they sound the same or use the same techniques or anything like that. at least I think that's what he's trying to say.

I have been messing around with chormatic runs,( dabbling ) off and on, and I always come back to the same conclusion. Too many notes in a song,( especially notes form another key ) tend to dilute the interest, and strenght of a peice. I myself use all 7 notes of a key for effect, and trying to work in chromatic notes just does not sound right to me. I mean every once and a while I will hit on something, but no big deal. Certainly not worth the extra effort. Not to mention the adjustments the other band members may have to make to blend. I recommend sticking within the root key for the most part. This whole changing key subject is over for me. Besides after 22 years of playing Im still finding new cool sounds in just one key, no problem. Extra notes not needed. You know sometimes I wonder if some people use that key changing excuse to cover for laps in technique, and the constant practice needed to stay in good form.
But thats just me.

Originally Posted by: axemaster911You know sometimes I wonder if some people use that key changing excuse to cover for laps in technique, and the constant practice needed to stay in good form.[/QUOTE]
changing keys IS a technique. you even said yourself that it's not super easy:
[QUOTE=axemaster911]Certainly not worth the extra effort. Not to mention the adjustments the other band members may have to make to blend.

it's not like people do key changes as a way to "cheat" their songs into sounding interesting. first of all, it's rarely used, so how do they make all their other songs interesting? and secondly, like I said, it IS a technique, and not a simple one.

Originally Posted by: 6strngs_2hmbkrschanging keys IS a technique. you even said yourself that it's not super easy:

it's not like people do key changes as a way to "cheat" their songs into sounding interesting. first of all, it's rarely used, so how do they make all their other songs interesting? and secondly, like I said, it IS a technique, and not a simple one.

I dont think this technique is rarely used because of the difficulty factor. I think its more of a sound quality factor. Playing notes outside the key your working in just doesnt sound right. You can get away with a few here, and there too add effect, and interest. But I belive unless a person is making music that requires an out of key sound for a strange, mysterious effect it should be avoided. I am mainly saying this for the less experienced players slill in the process of learning the diatonic scale. Untill you have a working grasp of the diatonic scale, key changes should not be considered. The points I am trying to make on this subject are intended for gutiarists still in training an need not worry about more than one key per song.
I have a feeling that if real amazing, cool sounds could come from blasting through two or more keys per song it wouldent be a rarely used technique, regardless of the difficulty, and extra effort involved to do it right.
I admit this is still a subject I am studying, and dont fully understand, but I know enough not to waste my time, when there will always be plenty to keep me busy working, and creating new sounds within one key.
Dont take offence, its just my opinion. Rock on

Originally Posted by: axemaster911But I belive unless a person is making music that requires an out of key sound for a strange, mysterious effect it should be avoided.

Yeah, that Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, Brahms, Bach, and basically everyone else that ever composed so-called "classical" music sure did only use key changes and out-of-key notes for strange and mysterious effect.

Originally Posted by: Jolly McJollysonYeah, that Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, Brahms, Bach, and basically everyone else that ever composed so-called "classical" music sure did only use key changes and out-of-key notes for strange and mysterious effect.

I would like to see the note structure of a song that uses notes from 2 different keys. I mean if we are talking about two full keys and not just random chromatic notes.
I am mainly saying beginners should focus on mastering one key first. After that the sky is the limit. Rock on >

I'd say that up until the 90s at least half of the songs on the radio--even in the Top 40--would modulate for the chorus or a middle 8. It's more common than you might think.

Check out Son Of a Preacherman by Dusty Springfield.
verse 1+2 e-a-e-b7
chorus e-a-e-a-e-b-a
Bridge d-a-b7-e7 setup for key change to a
chorus 2
a-d-a-d-a-e-d7

Originally Posted by: axemaster911I would like to see the note structure of a song that uses notes from 2 different keys.[/QUOTE]
How about three?!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-key_exposition

Also, once you get into the development section of any Beethoven piece (sonata, concerto, symphony) the key changes come even more fast and furious. In fact, there are very few classical pieces that do not change key somewhere along the way as a matter of standard procedure.

The idea is to make a piece richer, and more varied in sound and expression.

[QUOTE=axemaster911]I am mainly saying beginners should focus on mastering one key first. After that the sky is the limit.

Sure, and this is a very good point. After all, how can you expect to be able to successfully, confidently two keys in a piece until after you've got one under control?

If your changing keys during a song your band members may need to have that ability also, or at least know the keys your migrating too for practice.

Originally Posted by: axemaster911If your changing keys during a song your band members may need to have that ability also, or at least know the keys your migrating too for practice.

Usually a modulation is not done during improv, and if it were, the communication between band members would absolutely HAVE to be a verbal description of how the modulation was to occur and to what key.

Originally Posted by: Jolly McJollysonUsually a modulation is not done during improv, and if it were, the communication between band members would absolutely HAVE to be a verbal description of how the modulation was to occur and to what key.

I assume your trying to be helpful, but if you tried wording this a little less complex it would be easier for simple folk like me to understand.

Originally Posted by: axemaster911I assume your trying to be helpful, but if you tried wording this a little less complex it would be easier for simple folk like me to understand.

basically here's what he said:

Usually a key change is not done when messing around and improvising, and if it were, you would have to verbally tell the other band members how the key change was going to happen and what key you are changing to.

Originally Posted by: axemaster911I assume your trying to be helpful, but if you tried wording this a little less complex it would be easier for simple folk like me to understand.

umm...ok.

You'll probably have to say what you're gonna do out loud.

Originally Posted by: Jolly McJollysonumm...ok.

You'll probably have to say what you're gonna do out loud.

Considering the volume levels at some of our sessions sign language may be needed. ( joking )
I see what you mean. What keys work best together, and what keys dont? Is this a trial and error technique, or are there common set guidelines for study?

Originally Posted by: axemaster911Considering the volume levels at some of our sessions sign language may be needed. ( joking )
I see what you mean. What keys work best together, and what keys dont? Is this a trial and error technique, or are there common set guidelines for study?

There are guidelines. Many, many guidelines. Pick up a good theory book on modulation and learn a few (if you plan on doing this with a band, have them learn the guidelines as well). I wouldn't say two keys work "best" together... Really you can modulate to any key from any other key. Though for quick modulations, the relative major/minor, the dominant, and the parallel major/minor are pretty simple.