diminished stuff

how do u use diminished stuff efectvely. obviously there is one diminished chord in diatonic theory, but is there a way u can use them more often?

or what cos i have heard lots of reference them but not really how to use them in a song.


also i made this little riff (sound quality is crap cos its my guitar directly into pc no amp between them.)

and i am pretty sure its diminished, but if u see all the notes i am usein a lot of chromatic notes. like at leat 9 notes are used. so i am thinkin i must be changin key or summti else is goin on.

Originally Posted by: Fret spiderhow do u use diminished stuff efectvely.

The proper function of diminished is as a dominant chord.

A quick overview of harmonic theory:

I - the one chord is the root or tonic
iii & vi - the three and or six chord are called mediant chords - they can also substitute for the I chord because they contain crucial common tones
IV & ii - the four and two chords are sub-dominant because they preceed dominant chords and are most useful for setting up ("approaching") a dominant
V & vii - the five and seven chords are dominant chords used right before returning to the tonic chord. Note that a diminshed chord (1, minor 3 and flat 5) is essentially the "top half" of a dominant 7 chord - for example a G7 chord - G, B, D, F - "contains" the diminished chord - B, D, F - and both G7 and B dim are the dominant chords in the key of C major.

Standard Dominant Music Theory is essentially a goal directed model that attempts to use this pattern:

Tonic chord introduces a key, melody, theme.
Mediant chords slowly alter the sound moving away from tonic thus "taking the music somewhere"
Sub-dominant chords move further away thus building tension
Dominant chords (7 chords and diminished chords!) have more dissonance and greatly increase tension that will be released when they eventually resolve back to the ...
Tonic chord! And the goal is realized and the music either ends or starts again on another progression or repetition.

Much music has this as it's underlying structure. And the unique, particular details of how any musician or composer makes this happen (or fails to do so) results in their particular "sound" or style.

To directly answer the question then - diminished chords are used to build tension before moving to a goal (final or temporary). For example, if you are in C major and playing a song, before you return to the C major chord to start the progression again (or repeat the verse or chorus or riff or whatever) if you put in a B diminshed chord it will effectively build a lot tension that will get released and make the return of the C major chord sound more "convincing".

Or if you want to move to a different chord just use it's diminshed chord a half step down. For example, jazz tunes do a lot of this, If you are in C major but want to get to A major then right before the A major chord play a G# diminshed chord - instant voice leading!

Jazz and classical songs and composers frequently have diminshed chords as little "bridges" to get from one chord, key, scale, etc to another.

Good luck playing, hope this helps!

To further expand on the great explanation above, a common way of employing diminished stuff is with chord and scalar substitution. CSchlegel touched upon how certain chords contain the notes of other chords and how some chords might be substituted for another chord. As he said, the G7 chord has overlapping notes with the B diminished chord. So we can effectively swap one chord for the other. Typically this means using a diminished chord instead of a dominant 7th, rather than the other way around, because we usually want to increase the tension before we resolve.

Here's one way of playing a G7 chord:


E---7
B---6
G---7
D---5
A----
E----


Now take a look at this B diminished chord:


E---7
B---6
G---7
D---6
A----
E----


Similar, eh? Only one note difference. Try playing a turnaround that contains a G7 chord and substitute the B diminished chord.

Here's one way to do it in the key of D:


E---2---3---2---0---3---6---
B---3---3---3---2---2---5---
G---2---0---2---0---3---6---
D---0---0---0---2---2---5---
A-------2-------0-----------
E-------3-------------------


You'll have to adjust the timing to make it work. :)

Lets go back to the key of C again and think of a typical turnaround conatins a G7 popping up right before returning to the C chord. If you are playing a solo over this progression you'd probably play right out of the C major scale, right? Probably. So over the G7 chord you're playing a G mixolydian mode, right? But what if we pretend that the G7 is a B diminished? Well, you could play the B locrian mode, which is basically the C major scale from B to B. That would be pretty boring though--same notes, different emphasis--no big deal. However, a B diminished arpeggio actually contains one note different to the Bmb5 that we find in the key of C.

Here's a B diminished arpeggio: B D F Ab

It's a series of minor third intervals, if anyone cares. :)

That one note, the Ab, isn't diatonic to either C major or G major, so it will sound a little sour. However, in the context of the other notes it will fit in and the sourness will add a bit of tension.

Here's an example run over a G7 chord in the key of C:


E--------------------------------
B--------------3---6---3---------
G-----------4-------------4-----5
D---3---6--------------------6---
A--------------------------------
E--------------------------------


The last note is played on the return to the C chord in the progression.

Hope this helps! I'm in a bit of a hurry and might have gotten something wrong, so if anyone sees something they can go ahead and correct me.

thats cool guys.

just checkin, ,mark, you are saying that you have your normally the 7th chord of c ionion would be (i dont know the name) root(B), minor3 (D), diminishd 5th (F), minor 7th (A).

but we play the dimminished scale with the bb7 (Ab). so this clashes with the chord and the key. but it doesnt clash so much that tonality is lost. so tension is built up.

is this right.


so when u use this do you try and resolve the Ab to an A as u play or do u just plow ahead with a diminished scale, letting the b7 and bb7 clash. is it a bit like playing a minor third over a 7th chord in a 12 bar blues?

Originally Posted by: Fret spiderthats cool guys.

just checkin, ,mark, you are saying that you have your normally the 7th chord of c ionion would be (i dont know the name) root(B), minor3 (D), diminishd 5th (F), minor 7th (A).

That's a Bmb5, also sometimes called a B half-diminished.

but we play the diminished scale with the bb7 (Ab). so this clashes with the chord and the key. but it doesnt clash so much that tonality is lost. so tension is built up.

Kinda, but not exactly. I guess you could do that, but I was substituting the V chord (G7) for the full B diminished 7 chord. A G7 has the notes G B D F, while a Bdim7 chord has the notes B D F Ab. So they kinda fit together.

so when u use this do you try and resolve the Ab to an A as u play or do u just plow ahead with a diminished scale, letting the b7 and bb7 clash. is it a bit like playing a minor third over a 7th chord in a 12 bar blues?

You just plow ahead! If you played D B F A you'd be outlining another chord altogether. It is a bit like playing the blues scale over a major blues.

Substituting a Dominant chord with a diminished chord (meaning diminshed 7) can easily be done by building a dim7 chord from the b7, the b9, the M3, or the 5th of the original Dominant7 chord.

They all end up being the same chord, but it'll give you an idea of all the places you can "use" one on the fly.

Then once you have that, or to even imply one over a straight Dominant chord, you can play a H-W tone scale from the Root of the Dominant chord. (this could also be considered a W-H scale from the b7, a W-H from the M3, a W-H from the b9, or a W-H from the 5th.

BUT...

There are SO many scales that create diminished chords. And each one is almost interchangable when building the chord from those notes of the Dominant chord.

I have a tutorial at my lessons site (http://lessons.mikedodge.com) called "Common Sounds Found in Jazz". It explains substitutions in great detail, and the playing part of the lesson (is uses Power Tabs) shows the use of the H-W tone, the Lydian b7, the Whole-Tone, and a couple other "diminished movements".

Substutions are the key use understanding dim7 chords, and scales, and being able to apply them anywhere.

You'll see where I take a moving progression and break it down to just three diminished chords. Once you understand basic Diatonic Subs, the diminished chord is EVERYWHERE and can be used as a sub for almost ANY chord.

It would definitely be worth your time to read it.

It's also also mentioned at spots in the Phrygian Dominant tutorial, which is at my lesson site also.

sorry, i thought i had replied to this, but i hadnt.

thanx for the tips guys, its a bit like descoverin the harmonic minor again. yah :D

any other cool things like the harmonc minor, and this diminished stuff that i should read about? if thats not clear i mean when u start twistin basic diatonic theory (all the same notes different emphasis).

again thanx

The modes of the Melodic Minor scale (Super Locrian, Lydian b7, etc...) lead to some great sounds.

Look at my Melodic Minor Primer at my lesson site: http://lessons.mikedodge.com

That will start to put the sound of the MM scale in your head.

Then for real examples download the Power Tab transcription I did for the "Common Sounds Found in Jazz" tutorial. That's covers using the MM modes, modes, partical scales, the Whole-tone scale, the H-W scale, combining scales, substitutions, etc...

There's a key subject to get familiar with "substitutions". Substitutions are where a lot of the secrets are. Knowing chord theory s the best way to learn scale, and why you use a certain scale when you do. If you read through that tutorial the "chords" section will show you a number of ways to substitute on the song that I used for demonstration.

You'll see a whole other palette to to paint with...since substituting chords means implying more scales or sounds.

Check it out, it'll be worth your time if you want to know a few of the secrets/common ways people continue to make music.

Sometimes less is more. Take a look at the Lydian tutorial and the Dominant Pentatonic tutorial. Those with show you how to cut down on the number of notes in your scale so you automatically introduce wider Intervals to your playing. And, it will help you sound less scaley, but will help you imply, or cover, more scales by using less notes.

Genn

cool
i will do so i have been meanin to read ur lessons for ages
thanx again