modes and such

is the major pentatonic and the minor pentatonic scales the same thing except in different positions? and if so then arent all modes that are based upon major scales, just more complicated, and built upon versions of the petatonic scales? im just a little confused on this whole mode business.

the pentatonics are created from the modal scales, but with some notes removed. if anything the pentatonics are based on the modal scales. pentatonics are five note scales wilst the modal ones are 7 note scales.

yes all modes are bassed on the majour scale. they are basically the same scale but starting in a different position. this means that the root second third fith etc of the scales are different.

the way i think of it is to say alll the relative modes essentially contain the same notes but different values are ascribed to them. for instance i 1 4 5 progression has a very strong 'feel'. now theoretically a 1 4 5 progression in one mode could be seen as a 3 6 7 in another. but the 3 6 7 progression doesnt have a strong enough feel to it. therfore the listner will hear the progression as a 1 4 5 progression in the first mode. so overalll the listner will hear what sounds the most 'normall', and 'familiar'. or basically what chords resolve best to others. this is what cadences are all about.

it is hard to truely appriciate modes if you play lead without accompanyment. if you are playing by yourself i would suggest playing a 1 4 5 progression in each of the modes (play the seventh chords, if u dont know them play the majour and minor ones). this should give you a better picture of modes

what is the 145 progression? is it the first , fourth, and fifth notes in the scale? and which mode are you talking about. also i think my original question was phrased wrong. i just noticed that if you play the minor pentatonic scale with the tonic being "G" in the key of "G"., it is the same position as if you were to play the major pentatonic scale in g except you start at "E" instead(not to say that e is the tonic

the numbers refer to the chords, eg 1 is the first chord in the key 4 is the fourth and 5 is the fith. u can find these chords by taking a scale and finding the first fourth and fith notes in it, these are the root notes of these chords.

for example these notes are G C D. in G majour ( the first mode)

to find the remaining notes in these chords you do a method called adding thirds. for example for the chord with its root on the first note of the scale, also play the third note of the scale and the fith and the seventh.


for the 4th chord of th scale play the 4th, 6th, 8th (or 1st), and 3rd

for the 5th chord of the scale play the fith, 7th, 2nd, and 4th.

this will create 3 seventh chords.

hope this helps, if your still confused i will work out the chors for you but i am guite tierd now and want to go to bed.

oh i think i understand. so when playing lead with a 145 progression, you just play what ever mode you are playing under the first fourth and fifth chords? and then i had another question, "for the 5th chord of the scale play the fith, 7th, 2nd, and 4th" why wouldnt it be 5th 7th 8th and 2nd? arent thoes all thirds?

Originally Posted by: lifeis@songoh i think i understand. so when playing lead with a 145 progression, you just play what ever mode you are playing under the first fourth and fifth chords? and then i had another question, "for the 5th chord of the scale play the fith, 7th, 2nd, and 4th" why wouldnt it be 5th 7th 8th and 2nd? arent thoes all thirds?

The distance from the 7th note to the 8th (1st/root) note is a second interval. The distance from the 7th note to the 9th/2nd note is the third he speaks of. Is that what you were asking?

Originally Posted by: lifeis@songis the major pentatonic and the minor pentatonic scales the same thing except in different positions? and if so then arent all modes that are based upon major scales, just more complicated, and built upon versions of the petatonic scales? im just a little confused on this whole mode business.

I am going to try to answer your questions:

a) The Major Pentatonic Scale and the Minor Pentatonic Scale are not the same.
Let's take a look at the C major scale first.
C-D-E-F-G-A-B
1-2-3-4-5 -6-7

Now, the Major Pentatonic Scale includes the same notes as the major scale, but leaves out the 4th and 7th degrees.
C-D-E-G-A
1-2-3-5-6.

The Minor Pentatonic Scale leaves out the 2nd and 6th degrees; and, the 3rd and 7th degrees are each flat(a half step lower).
C-Eb-F-G-Bb
1-b3-4-5-b7

b) The ancient Modes are not built upon versions of the petatonic scales. They are seven note scales.
For example the Dorian Mode, is a minor mode which has the 3rd and 7th degrees flatted.
C-D-Eb-F-G-A-Bb
1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7

it is as cryptic says

anyway to just give u examples lets take the key of c ionian (the major scale). it has the following notes C D E F G A B. and then repeats

i will quickly clear up the 1 4 5 thing. the first chord of the scale is pretty obvious, you take the first 3rd 5th and seventh note. which are C E G B.

now for the second chord set the second note D as the root note, so that the order of the notes is D E F G A B C. (now you are in the dorian mode but modes are not specifcally important now, i am just tryin to show you how to make the chords). now again take the first 3rd 5th and seventh note of this scale. this time it will be D F A and C.

then u do the above again starting on the third note of the ionian scale. which is now the phrygian mode. the notes are E F G A B C D. and the chord you get contains E G B and D.

repeat this for the remaining notes of the scale and you get all the seventh chords for the c ionian scale. if u want only triads eg major/minor chords with out the seventh exclude the seventh note.

to sum up the first chord contains C E G B and is a Cmaj7th (could play cmaj)
the second chord contains D F A and C and is a Dmin7th (could play Dmin)
the third chord contains E G B and D and is a Emin7th (could play Emin)
the fourth chord contains F A C E and is a Fmaj 7th (could play Fmaj)
the fith chord contains G B D F and is a dominat 7th, also kown as 7th chord, (it is made of root, maj 3rd, 5th, flat 7th) and is G7. (could play Gmaj)
the sixth chord contains A C E G and is a Amin 7th ( could play Amin)
the seventh chord contains B D F and A and is a diminished 7th (i think that is the name), (it has a root, min3rd, flat 5th, flat 7th) and is Bdiminshed 7. (could play Bdiminished.)


so now we have the seven chords of the scale.

now back to modes, one could think of the modes as changing from chord to chord, so that on the first chord it is the C ionian, on the fourth it is F lydian (the fourth mode), and on the fith it is G mixolydian (the fith mode). this is quite usefull as it allows the muscision to target the particular notes that are in the chord whilst playing lead, this is often very useful. but because the 1 4 5 progression (Cmaj 7th, Fmaj 7th, G dominant 7th or Cmaj, Fmaj, Gmaj) has a very distinctive sound that resolves very well back to the first chord, Cmaj 7th, it sounds like the modality remains in C ionian.

now if i was to play the chords Dmin 7th, G dominant 7th. Amin 7th it is possible to say this is a 2 5 6 progression in C ionian. but i 2 5 6 has a weak feel it doesnt feel very 'obvious' to the listener. they would prefer to hear it as a 1 4 5 progression in D dorian.

really it all depends in a way on the start point.if u say the second chord of the C ionian scale is going to be your 1 chord you are in the dorian mode, if you say the third note of the C ionian is the 1 chord you are in the phrygian mode.


to hear all this play 1 4 5 progressions in each mode.

eg relative to the ionian mode 1 4 5
2 5 6
3 6 7
4 7 8/1
5 8/1 2
6 2 3
7 3 4

hope this helps

a long time ago i took guitar lessons, they lasted for about a yr and a half, but anyway now i understand why he didnt want to teach me all that stuff just then, its super complex and super confusing and crazy. wow. thanks for anyone and everyone adding there two cents, or 20 cents.

Just a minor discrepincy....

The 7 Chord is half diminished - a Minor 7 Flat 5, usually written m7b5. But if you're not adding the 7th to your chords, then you're right it would normaly be called diminished.

A Diminished 7th chord would have a double flatted 7th (which is a 6th) and does not occur in the major scale and modes, but it makes a great sub and everyone uses it all over the place!

Originally Posted by: shinyJust a minor discrepincy....

The 7 Chord is half diminished - a Minor 7 Flat 5, usually written m7b5. But if you're not adding the 7th to your chords, then you're right it would normaly be called diminished.

A Diminished 7th chord would have a double flatted 7th (which is a 6th) and does not occur in the major scale and modes, but it makes a great sub and everyone uses it all over the place!

Actually they're both forms of diminished 7th chords. They both feature Minor 3rds and Diminished 5ths, but if you add another major 3rd onto the currently diminished 5th then you get the the half diminished 7th. If you add an additional Minor 3rd after the diminished 5th you get a whole diminished 7th which would be the double flatted you speak of.

Originally Posted by: Cryptic ExcretionsActually they're both forms of diminished 7th chords. They both feature Minor 3rds and Diminished 5ths, but if you add another major 3rd onto the currently diminished 5th then you get the the half diminished 7th. If you add an additional Minor 3rd after the diminished 5th you get a whole diminished 7th which would be the double flatted you speak of.

Huh? No he's pretty much right, If we are just talking about the modes and the major scale you just get a half diminished. Full diminished chords are in another boat entirely.

Originally Posted by: Julian VickersHuh? No he's pretty much right, If we are just talking about the modes and the major scale you just get a half diminished. Full diminished chords are in another boat entirely.

I hate to jump in on this debate, but Cryptic is right here. Fully diminished seventh chords are just minor third-minor third-minor third

I don't even know what the debate is about, we can all agree about how to make a diminished chord, I was just saying that you don't get one from the major scale.

Originally Posted by: Julian VickersI don't even know what the debate is about, we can all agree about how to make a diminished chord, I was just saying that you don't get one from the major scale.

I'm really wanting to think that I've misunderstood what you're saying because you can get a diminished chord from the major scale. Think VII degree.

Anyway, in my defence I'd just gathered that, with the way Shiny phrased his sentence, that he meant to say that the half diminished 7th didn't qualify as a 7th chord. If I misunderstood then that would be my fault. I wasn't touching the modal talk, since that's been accurate to the best of my knowledge.

Originally Posted by: Cryptic ExcretionsI'm really wanting to think that I've misunderstood what you're saying because you can get a diminished chord from the major scale. Think VII degree.

No, what we are trying to say is that when you take the 7th degree of the major scale and make a 7th chord from it, you don't get a diminished 7th chord, you get a minor7b5 (half diminished). It's not a big deal don't worry about it. I hate getting in theory arguments on the net.

Originally Posted by: Julian VickersNo, what we are trying to say is that when you take the 7th degree of the major scale and make a 7th chord from it, you don't get a diminished 7th chord, you get a minor7b5 (half diminished). It's not a big deal don't worry about it. I hate getting in theory arguments on the net.

Ok, and that's what I was saying. That is still a diminished chord. The root triad in it is a diminished triad with a major 3rd tagged on the ass end of it. It's still a diminished chord just like a dominant 7th is still a type of major chord.

Originally Posted by: Julian VickersI don't even know what the debate is about, we can all agree about how to make a diminished chord, I was just saying that you don't get one from the major scale.

?

What about Vii?

Originally Posted by: Cryptic ExcretionsOk, and that's what I was saying. That is still a diminished chord. The root triad in it is a diminished triad with a major 3rd tagged on the ass end of it. It's still a diminished chord just like a dominant 7th is still a type of major chord.

Ok right on.

i can never remember the name of that chord i just know the shape and that its root b3 b5 b7. but i am glad to see that the restv of the stuff i said was correct cos i sorta worked it out on my own.

as to the theory being relly complicated, it is when you first see it but its also really logical, at least to me, so after ypou see the patern it all start to make sense. although implementing it is much harder.

anyway glad i could be of help.