What makes C Ionian distinct from D Dorian?

Firstly, I know they both use the same notes, but in different order, but what makes musicians use D Dorian over C Ionian?

The second question I want to address is:

As for degrees, (C Ionian's 3rd degree is Em), does that make D dorian's 3rd degree Fm or is it still F and why?

I hope you guitar pros understand what I am trying to ask, because modes are pretty confusing.

Thanks and happy shredding!

SnowRose

Originally Posted by: SnowRoseFirstly, I know they both use the same notes, but in different order, but what makes musicians use D Dorian over C Ionian? [/QUOTE]
It all determines what interval steps are between the notes.

C Ionian
w w h w w w h

Here we have the typical major scale which features these intervals starting at C.
Major 2nd
Major 3rd
Perfect 4th
Perfect 5th
Major 6th
Major 7th
Octave

D Dorian
w h w w w h w

Here we've moved the root note, but since we're hitting the same notes, it alters the intervals between them to this.

Major 2nd
Minor 3rd
Perfect 4th
Perfect 5th
Major 6th
Minor 7th
Octave

Now there are two minor intervals in there. And that's what gives things their own sound. Intervals are the most important part of music since they were what give it the life that it has. Everything else is based off of intervals. All chords are determined by what kind of intervals are in it. All scales are determined by what interval steps are used within an octave.

[QUOTE=SnowRose]
The second question I want to address is:

As for degrees, (C Ionian's 3rd degree is Em), does that make D dorian's 3rd degree Fm or is it still F and why?

It would still be F because the notes have not changed and though the intervals have changed they are still built to accompany the same notes. Since the notes are all the same they're used to make all the same things.

For example
The Eminor chord consists of the notes E, B, G, all of which are present in C Ionian and D Dorian.

In the Fmajor chord, the notes F, C, A are the active notes.

There's a pattern that determins the whole major minor value of notes in a scale. In Ionian it looks like this.
(Legend: M = Major, m = minor, d = diminished)

M m m M M m d

In Dorian it looks like this.

m m M M m d M

So all the chords are still the same, they've just been moved to different positions since the starting position has changed. And that's all a mode really does is just change where you're starting. Have I lost you yet? Let me know if you didn't get something.

Wow thanks a lot!

Ok so to recap my first question, the intervals just change the sound of the scale much like how Minor scales sound different than Major scales?

And as for the last question, Dorian will not contain an Fm at all, because the the whole major minor value of notes pattern has changed as you go from Ionian to Dorian?

yeh, thats right, because an ionian mode as all major intervals in it, hence the major scale thing, and a dorian has a minor third and a minor 7th, so its inheritively a minor scale, and my personal favourite mode, i might add.

Originally Posted by: SnowRose
Ok so to recap my first question, the intervals just change the sound of the scale much like how Minor scales sound different than Major scales?[/QUOTE]
Sounds like you've got it. Bear in mind this is all determined by where you start. Starting with D will get you the sound of Dorian. But if you start on E, you're going to get a very much different sound.

[QUOTE=SnowRose]
And as for the last question, Dorian will not contain an Fm at all, because the the whole major minor value of notes pattern has changed as you go from Ionian to Dorian?

Right. It more or less is just slightly rearranged.

It very much depends on what notes you accentuate. It's a psychological thing too. While you could play Cmajor over a Dminor chord, it would sound strange because psychologically you are playing Cmajor......yeah it's hard to explain.

Heres an AWESOME trick. you will be amazed at how cool this sounds.
Over a Dminor chord, play the Eminor7 arpeggio

--5------------------------------------7---10-
--6-------------------------------8-----------
--5------------------------7---9--------------
--7--------------------9----------------------
--5------------7--10--------------------------
-----------------------------------------------
Dminor7

It sounds awesomely jazzy because the notes you are hitting are all the notes that make the D dorian sound distinctive (D E G B) the 1st, 6th, 9th and 11th. I use this trick with my Jazz solos all the time. try it out

Originally Posted by: Julian VickersIt very much depends on what notes you accentuate. It's a psychological thing too. While you could play Cmajor over a Dminor chord, it would sound strange because psychologically you are playing Cmajor......yeah it's hard to explain.

Heres an AWESOME trick. you will be amazed at how cool this sounds.
Over a Dminor chord, play the Eminor7 arpeggio

--5------------------------------------7---10-
--6-------------------------------8-----------
--5------------------------7---9--------------
--7--------------------9----------------------
--5------------7--10--------------------------
-----------------------------------------------
Dminor7

It sounds awesomely jazzy because the notes you are hitting are all the notes that make the D dorian sound distinctive (D E G B) the 1st, 6th, 9th and 11th. I use this trick with my Jazz solos all the time. try it out

Yes, that is absolutly right.
You can also create a Dorian sound by playing an F maj7 arpeggio over an static Dm7.

e----1--------------0-----
B----1-----------1--------
G----2--------2-----------
D----0-----3--------------
A-------------------------
E-------------------------

And another Arpeggio you can use to create a D dorian sound, is a C maj7.

e----1-------------------------
B----1--------------0------------
G----2-----------0---------------
D----0--------2-----------------
A----------3--------------------
E------------------------------


0r you can play an E minor pentatonic scale over the Dm7 chord.

e----1-------------------------
B----2-------------------3------
G----2----------2---4-----------
D----0--2---5--------------------
A------------------------------
E------------------------------

Have fun!


;)