Speaker Recommendation?

This is my first participation in these forums.

I have an Ampeg GU-12 amplifier. This is a small combo amp, built around 1969-70, that originally came with (and still has) a 12" Jensen speaker. It runs a pair of 7591 tubes for output, which I'm guessing to be in the vicinity of 30-40 watts. It's probably similar in circuitry and sound to an old Jet or Reverborocket... 12AX7 (preamp/tremolo), 6U10 (preamp/reverb) and 12DW7 (preamp/phase inverter) round out the tube lineup, and it has solid state rectifiers in the power supply. The amplifier cabinet has an open back, much like a blackface or silverface Fender Deluxe or Princeton.

I would like to upgrade the speaker, but I am undecided about whether to go with a Celestion Vintage 30 or a Classic Lead 80. I've listened to sound samples online, but Celestion's Tone Selector doesn't seem to show any conclusive differences between the two speakers (they don't really A/B the samples with identical guitars/amps as well as I think they could). There seems to be more of a recommendation to use a Classic Lead in an open cabinet, but in comparing the samples here:

http://www.bobsavage.net/bogner/bogner_no_settings.htm

...I think that I like the sound of the Vintage 30 more.

Will a Vintage 30 work in an open combo cabinet like my GU-12's?

C.K.

Out of those 5 clips, my favorite one was the G12H-30. I didn't like the Classic 80 at all. Second favorite was the Vintage 30. That's not to say that those speakers would sound good with your amp though. Different amps react differently with different speakers. I don't know anything about your amp, so I can't make a good suggestion. Maybe Lats can hop in, since he's our resident Ampeg guru.

P.S. Welcome to the site!

Originally Posted by: PRSplayaOut of those 5 clips, my favorite one was the G12H-30. I didn't like the Classic 80 at all. Second favorite was the Vintage 30. That's not to say that those speakers would sound good with your amp though. Different amps react differently with different speakers. I don't know anything about your amp, so I can't make a good suggestion. Maybe Lats can hop in, since he's our resident Ampeg guru.

P.S. Welcome to the site!

Thank you...

One thing I forgot to mention in my first post: my reason for deciding between the CL 80 and the V 30 was power handling -- I'm nervous about going down to a 25 or 30 watt rated speaker running off of a pair of 7591s, which I think are capable of dissipating about 20 watts each. Otherwise I might seriously consider something along the lines of a Greenback for the amp. But I was looking to go at least 50 watts of handling on the speaker just to play it safe. If the amp were 2-12 it would be a completely different ballgame.

Funny thing is that the original Jensen doesn't look like all that meaty of a speaker in terms of power -- the number stamped on the rim looks like either "C12-B" or "C12-8" (hard for me to make out the last character, as the ink slightly runs off the edge of the frame). But it has a fairly small magnet that doesn't appear to be enough for the volume that this amp seems to be capable of generating. I'm replacing it mainly because I don't want to damage it, due to its age. Mabye Ampeg undersized it thinking that this GU-12 was going to be a "practice" amp used at lower volumes mostly, or just out of cost issues. (?)

C.K.

Did someone say AMPEG? :D

All of my amps are Magnavox-era Ampegs, so I tend to have a fairly narrow perspective on some things...

Bear in mind that Everett Hull absolutely hated Rock'n'Roll music. Which is ironic considering that his amps pretty much defined what rock sounded like in the 70s. What gives these classic amps their killer sound is that they were designed to play well clean, with lots of headroom, using robust components. So when you push 'em hard, they sound like God has come to party! :cool:

Celestions are made to break up and add their own voice to amps that are pretty much one-trick ponies. When you push them just nicely into the 'sweet spot' they deliver one particular kind of sound. Which is why Marshall and Fender folks love 'em. And why they have no business being in an Ampeg cab. Why artificially limit an amp that can do anything the other amps can, plus a whole lot more? The original Jensen, Altec, Eminence and CTS speakers were chosen for full-range, undistorted performance, letting the amp speak for itself. And Ampegs deserve to be heard, uncoloured, straight-up, and balls-out!

So go to the >Weber VST< website and browse through the spec sheets and the user reviews. Then send an e-mail to Ted Weber. He'll answer in person! How often do you get to deal with The Man himself? After sorting through some reviews, and a few e-mail exchanges with Ted, I picked a 15" ceramic-magnet California (Altec-style) with a paper voice-coil dome for my VT-40 salvage custom job. It's amazing! Every detail comes through, and I get the full benefit of the most versatile tone controls around. The 12" ceramic California would be just killer in your GU-12!

OK, now, you're maybe gonna get sticker-shock from the price, but give it some thought. I bought 1 15" speaker instead of replacing 4 flood-damaged 10" speakers. Not the same situation you're facing. Meanwhile you can check out the Jensen clones available from Weber. The VST stands for Vintage Speaker Technology. And the man knows what he's doing. I've been working in some pretty exotic technical jobs for the last 30 years, and he managed to impress the hell outa me! So stroll on past the woulda-coulda-shoulda stuff. You didn't settle for a Fender or a Marshall. You don't wanna sound like every body else. You got an Ampeg, and they always sound as unique as the guy who's plugged into them. So don't settle for one of 'the usual suspects' when you choose your speaker.

Originally Posted by: LordathestringsDid someone say AMPEG? :D

All of my amps are Magnavox-era Ampegs, so I tend to have a fairly narrow perspective on some things...

Bear in mind that Everett Hull absolutely hated Rock'n'Roll music. Which is ironic considering that his amps pretty much defined what rock sounded like in the 70s. What gives these classic amps their killer sound is that they were designed to play well clean, with lots of headroom, using robust components. So when you push 'em hard, they sound like God has come to party! :cool:

Celestions are made to break up and add their own voice to amps that are pretty much one-trick ponies. When you push them just nicely into the 'sweet spot' they deliver one particular kind of sound. Which is why Marshall and Fender folks love 'em. And why they have no business being in an Ampeg cab. Why artificially limit an amp that can do anything the other amps can, plus a whole lot more? The original Jensen, Altec, Eminence and CTS speakers were chosen for full-range, undistorted performance, letting the amp speak for itself. And Ampegs deserve to be heard, uncoloured, straight-up, and balls-out!

So go to the >Weber VST< website and browse through the spec sheets and the user reviews. Then send an e-mail to Ted Weber. He'll answer in person! How often do you get to deal with The Man himself? After sorting through some reviews, and a few e-mail exchanges with Ted, I picked a 15" ceramic-magnet California (Altec-style) with a paper voice-coil dome for my VT-40 salvage custom job. It's amazing! Every detail comes through, and I get the full benefit of the most versatile tone controls around. The 12" ceramic California would be just killer in your GU-12!

OK, now, you're maybe gonna get sticker-shock from the price, but give it some thought. I bought 1 15" speaker instead of replacing 4 flood-damaged 10" speakers. Not the same situation you're facing. Meanwhile you can check out the Jensen clones available from Weber. The VST stands for Vintage Speaker Technology. And the man knows what he's doing. I've been working in some pretty exotic technical jobs for the last 30 years, and he managed to impress the hell outa me! So stroll on past the woulda-coulda-shoulda stuff. You didn't settle for a Fender or a Marshall. You don't wanna sound like every body else. You got an Ampeg, and they always sound as unique as the guy who's plugged into them. So don't settle for one of 'the usual suspects' when you choose your speaker.

Whoa...

You've made quite a compelling argument, and I guess that I'm going to have to trust your judgement on this one.

I'm not sure what you mean by "sticker shock", though, as you've suggested the ceramic California and not the alnico. The ceramic Cali is about $25 less than the V30. :confused: I've got no issues with the ceramic California's price at all.

Do you have a recommendation on the cone type, or should I confer with Ted on this?

I do agree with you about these old Ampegs, though. This amp has got more power under the hood than its appearance suggests. And you're right, very clean power. I don't see GU-12s in my travels too often, either -- mabye once in a great while one shows up on eBay. It's in near mint condition, too -- clean original grille cloth and no significant dings on the Tolex.

I've got one set each of the Electro-Harmonix and JJ 7591s, and at some point was going to A/B them for sound, as each brand seems to have its fans out there.

I tremendously appreciate your response! Thanks much...

PRSplaya: you're right, the G12H-30 sounds the best out of those samples; went back and listened again. It seems to have a subtle edge over the V30.

C.K.

I liked the V30 clip, but the G12H-30 clip had a bit more clarity, but with some of the same characteristics of the V30 that I liked.

Going on what Lats said about Ampeg's doing better with a flatter sounding speaker, you might want to look into something like an Eminence Delta Pro, EV12M (out of production), or the Weber Michigan. Each of those speakers are supposed to be similar in tone (according to hear say, not personal experience). They are made to have a relatavily flat response, and high power handling.

BTW, do you have any pictures of this amp?

@Lats... if you ever run accross a good deal on a V series head, let me know. I've been dying to get my hands on one. I've got my channel switches and all. Now, it's time for a single channel tone monster *evil grin* :D

Sticker Shock = four P10Q vs one ceramic Cali 15

The Californias only have one cone shape. The options are magnet type and voice coil cover dome material. If you go with a Cali, get the paper dome. The aluminum dome looks more like the old JBL/Altec speakers, but they add just a bit too much on the high end, and sound harsh. The H-screen dome wasn't available when I got my Cali, but if it's warmer than the paper dome, I'd leave that for the Fender fellas.

Originally Posted by: PRSplaya... @Lats... if you ever run accross a good deal on a V series head, let me know. I've been dying to get my hands on one. I've got my channel switches and all. Now, it's time for a single channel tone monster *evil grin* :D

Haunt eBay. A decent V-2 or V-4 can still be had for ~$400US.

Originally Posted by: LordathestringsSticker Shock = four P10Q vs one ceramic Cali 15

The Californias only have one cone shape. The options are magnet type and voice coil cover dome material. If you go with a Cali, get the paper dome. The aluminum dome looks more like the old JBL/Altec speakers, but they add just a bit too much on the high end, and sound harsh. The H-screen dome wasn't available when I got my Cali, but if it's warmer than the paper dome, I'd leave that for the Fender fellas.

Okay; thanks for the clarification on both points... I just got back here from e-mailing Ted, and once I hear back from him I think that I will be good to go.

I think with the money I save I'll get one of those Bias-Rite thingys, too. :)

I tremendously appreciate all of your help here -- thanks again...

C.K.

One point to remember:

A new speaker needs to be 'broken in' because the spider and the cone-surround are stiff. Ted recommends using the heater filament winding of a power transformer to drive a fresh speaker at 60 Hz for a while to loosen it up. Or you could play one channel of your stereo into it for a few days. Just be aware that it will not sound right for a while at first.

But when it's ready.... :eek:

Originally Posted by: PRSplayaI liked the V30 clip, but the G12H-30 clip had a bit more clarity, but with some of the same characteristics of the V30 that I liked.[/QUOTE]

That was exactly how I heard it, too...

Originally Posted by: PRSplayaGoing on what Lats said about Ampeg's doing better with a flatter sounding speaker, you might want to look into something like an Eminence Delta Pro, EV12M (out of production), or the Weber Michigan. Each of those speakers are supposed to be similar in tone (according to hear say, not personal experience). They are made to have a relatavily flat response, and high power handling.

I guess that this is the approach I'll be taking now, pretty much going after what the original Jensen does, but with more power handling. Mr. Weber should have something that will do the trick.

[QUOTE=PRSplaya]BTW, do you have any pictures of this amp?

Not at the moment, but once I get it put back together, I'll take a few and will post them here.

It looks much like the typical Maganvox-era Ampeg, black Tolex, blue grille cloth, silver control panel with black/silver knobs, and a metal "A" plate on the baffle. A little bigger than a Princeton, taller and narrower than a CBS Deluxe.

C.K.

Originally Posted by: LordathestringsOne point to remember:

A new speaker needs to be 'broken in' because the spider and the cone-surround are stiff. Ted recommends using the heater filament winding of a power transformer to drive a fresh speaker at 60 Hz for a while to loosen it up. Or you could play one channel of your stereo into it for a few days. Just be aware that it will not sound right for a while at first.

But when it's ready.... :eek:

Okay; will do...

C.K.

Originally Posted by: LordathestringsTed recommends using the heater filament winding of a power transformer to drive a fresh speaker at 60 Hz for a while to loosen it up.

I'm sure it's a bit out of my league, but how would you go about doing this? I'm planning on swapping the speakers out in my 5150 combo for a Governor and a Wizard that I have laying around unused. The Wizard was used a while in my 4x12, but still isn't quite through loosening up, and the Governor is brand new. If I use the stereo trick, could I run the line out from my computer to the effects return of the amp, or is there a better way?

Here is the reply I received:

"The ceramic California 12 with paper dome would give you a big, broad tone with lots of punch and dynamics, and little to no breakup."

Before I go ahead and take the plunge here, one last question -- can we discuss the difference between distortion generated within a tube amplifier versus speaker breakup? If, say, I put this speaker into the GU-12, do I end up with an amplifier that's clean all the way dimed, or is a smaller amp's overdrive characteristics (if it has them) a combination of the amplifier circuitry and the speaker or speakers?

In other words, (loosely speaking) am I going in the direction of a Twin or a Tweed Deluxe?

C.K.

What you get is a speaker that accurately delivers what the amps sends to it. This is different from a speaker that distorts on it's own beyond a certain threshold drive level. The former reproduces the distortion generated by the amp. The latter starts to crunch at a certain point regardless of whether the amp is being pushed or not.

With the California, you hear what your amp is doing. With lesser speakers, you hear what the speaker is doing. With Ampegs, you want to hear what the amp is doing. 'Cause they do it better than other amps.

I chose a ceramic California for my amp because it has the input sensitivity switches and a Master Volume control. I can dial in pretty much any tone I want, at pretty much any volume level I want. I need a speaker that will do the job at any drive level from 1/2 Watt to 60 Watts. The Cali delivers.

Your GU-12 is a different beast, in that it doesn't have as much control flexibility. But here's the main, don't-you-forget-it point: you can try out a Weber speaker and then trade it in if you don't like it. You won't get that deal from Celestion or anyone else.

If you appreciate versatility, go for the California. It will work well at any drive level, clearly delivering what the amp gives it. You will easily be able to tell the difference between two different guitars, or two different players. If you want a particular kind of sound that only happens with a specific combination of settings, then you can spend a lot of time (and money) looking for something else.

If you really want to know what you sound like, plug into an Ampeg. I've seen the look on people's faces when they step into my rig, expecting to make the same sounds I do. And they still sound like themselves, only LOUD.

If you want to belt out the same generic high-gain, compressed, mushy, buzz-tone as every other metal-god wannabe, don't go Ampeg. A properly set up Ampeg delivers exactly what you put into it, at volume levels that leave you nowhere to hide. And an accurate, uncoloured, efficient speaker like the Weber California is true to that spirit.

Anything else is just something else.



'Nuff said. :cool:

Originally Posted by: PRSplaya... If I use the stereo trick, could I run the line out from my computer to the effects return of the amp, or is there a better way?

The whole idea is nothing more complicated than feeding a wide range of frequencies to the speaker at levels that give it a bit of a workout. You could get the same benefit by just playing through it for a while. By feeding full-range music through an amp to it, you can set it up, walk away for a day or three, and get the job done without effort over a short period of time.

And you don't need Mega-Power. The heater winding of a tube amp power transformer puts out 6.3 Volts AC. Fed to an 8 Ohm speaker, that's going to be a whopping 5 Watts! Even a 4 Ohm speaker would only draw 10 Watts. Do the break-in with the speaker sitting on its own on a bench top. Place it on the magnet, facing up, so that there is no air trapped between the cone and a flat surface. You want to let it move freely. And you don't want a cab to make it project sound efficiently. A few days of loud 60 Hz hum will guarranteed make you muy loco.

Originally Posted by: stahlhart... I do agree with you about these old Ampegs, though. This amp has got more power under the hood than its appearance suggests. And you're right, very clean power...

Ampegs were designed to deliver great clean sound, with lots of headroom. Everett Hull hated Rock'n'Roll, remember? So when an Ampeg is pushed into distortion, it doesn't sound like lesser amps that were intended to get buzzy. A distorted Ampeg sounds like something that has been pushed to the limit, and is going to utterly destroy anyone who is fool enough to ask for more. And because they were built with massive transformers and conservative tube utilisation, they are seriously loud by the time they get dirty. I still hold that the true test of a player's finger-tone is what they sound like plugged straight into an Ampeg.

But, if you want to do the pedal thing, Ampegs will cheerfully accomodate you. I had an absolute blast trying out a Digitech Bad Monkey with my VT-22. The only reason I got rid of that pedal is the nasty tone-sucking things it did to my sound when I shut it off. With true bypass, that would be my personal favourite stomp box.

Originally Posted by: LordathestringsWhat you get is a speaker that accurately delivers what the amps sends to it. This is different from a speaker that distorts on it's own beyond a certain threshold drive level. The former reproduces the distortion generated by the amp. The latter starts to crunch at a certain point regardless of whether the amp is being pushed or not.

With the California, you hear what your amp is doing. With lesser speakers, you hear what the speaker is doing. With Ampegs, you want to hear what the amp is doing. 'Cause they do it better than other amps.

I chose a ceramic California for my amp because it has the input sensitivity switches and a Master Volume control. I can dial in pretty much any tone I want, at pretty much any volume level I want. I need a speaker that will do the job at any drive level from 1/2 Watt to 60 Watts. The Cali delivers.

Your GU-12 is a different beast, in that it doesn't have as much control flexibility. But here's the main, don't-you-forget-it point: you can try out a Weber speaker and then trade it in if you don't like it. You won't get that deal from Celestion or anyone else.

If you appreciate versatility, go for the California. It will work well at any drive level, clearly delivering what the amp gives it. You will easily be able to tell the difference between two different guitars, or two different players. If you want a particular kind of sound that only happens with a specific combination of settings, then you can spend a lot of time (and money) looking for something else.

If you really want to know what you sound like, plug into an Ampeg. I've seen the look on people's faces when they step into my rig, expecting to make the same sounds I do. And they still sound like themselves, only LOUD.

If you want to belt out the same generic high-gain, compressed, mushy, buzz-tone as every other metal-god wannabe, don't go Ampeg. A properly set up Ampeg delivers exactly what you put into it, at volume levels that leave you nowhere to hide. And an accurate, uncoloured, efficient speaker like the Weber California is true to that spirit.

Anything else is just something else.



'Nuff said. :cool:

Placed my order for the 12" ceramic California, paper dome (and the Bias-Rite for 7591s) with Mr. Weber this morning... :)

C.K.

Originally Posted by: LordathestringsWhat you get is a speaker that accurately delivers what the amps sends to it. This is different from a speaker that distorts on it's own beyond a certain threshold drive level. The former reproduces the distortion generated by the amp. The latter starts to crunch at a certain point regardless of whether the amp is being pushed or not.

With the California, you hear what your amp is doing. With lesser speakers, you hear what the speaker is doing. With Ampegs, you want to hear what the amp is doing. 'Cause they do it better than other amps.

I chose a ceramic California for my amp because it has the input sensitivity switches and a Master Volume control. I can dial in pretty much any tone I want, at pretty much any volume level I want. I need a speaker that will do the job at any drive level from 1/2 Watt to 60 Watts. The Cali delivers.

Your GU-12 is a different beast, in that it doesn't have as much control flexibility. But here's the main, don't-you-forget-it point: you can try out a Weber speaker and then trade it in if you don't like it. You won't get that deal from Celestion or anyone else.

If you appreciate versatility, go for the California. It will work well at any drive level, clearly delivering what the amp gives it. You will easily be able to tell the difference between two different guitars, or two different players. If you want a particular kind of sound that only happens with a specific combination of settings, then you can spend a lot of time (and money) looking for something else.

If you really want to know what you sound like, plug into an Ampeg. I've seen the look on people's faces when they step into my rig, expecting to make the same sounds I do. And they still sound like themselves, only LOUD.

If you want to belt out the same generic high-gain, compressed, mushy, buzz-tone as every other metal-god wannabe, don't go Ampeg. A properly set up Ampeg delivers exactly what you put into it, at volume levels that leave you nowhere to hide. And an accurate, uncoloured, efficient speaker like the Weber California is true to that spirit.

Anything else is just something else.



'Nuff said. :cool:

Placed my order for the 12" ceramic California, paper dome (and the Bias-Rite for 7591s) with Mr. Weber this morning... :)

C.K.

Originally Posted by: LordathestringsAmpegs were designed to deliver great clean sound, with lots of headroom. Everett Hull hated Rock'n'Roll, remember? So when an Ampeg is pushed into distortion, it doesn't sound like lesser amps that were intended to get buzzy. A distorted Ampeg sounds like something that has been pushed to the limit, and is going to utterly destroy anyone who is fool enough to ask for more. And because they were built with massive transformers and conservative tube utilisation, they are seriously loud by the time they get dirty. I still hold that the true test of a player's finger-tone is what they sound like plugged straight into an Ampeg.

But, if you want to do the pedal thing, Ampegs will cheerfully accomodate you. I had an absolute blast trying out a Digitech Bad Monkey with my VT-22. The only reason I got rid of that pedal is the nasty tone-sucking things it did to my sound when I shut it off. With true bypass, that would be my personal favourite stomp box.

My thought was that, if I were able to push this amplifier harder, I'd end up with distortion character more along the lines of, say, a Hiwatt, as opposed to the more "saturated" sort of distortion you get with a older Marshall -- realizing it's an oxymoron, I'm tempted to say a "cleaner" sort of overdrive with less crunch.

Here's the circuit:

http://www.kbapps.com/audio/schematics/tubeamps/ampeg/gu12.html

I see some experimental opportunity in the values of R14 and R21; it looks as though a lot of signal gain is pulled down after the second preamp and in the reverb recovery. I was also wondering if a 12AX7 in place of the 12DW7 would be of any interest -- hitting the 7591s with 12AX7 gain in the phase inverter instead of 12AU7 gain (the 12DW7 is half AX7, half AU7). I'm going to tinker here a little to see if I can get the amp to open up a little more at lower volume levels.

This was an interesting thread I ran into:

http://p210.ezboard.com/fampworkshopfrm13.showMessage?topicID=114.topic

Note tonepoet's comment about the 7591s. I think that that had something to do with how I ended up with this amplifier -- it had been donated to a charity that my father used to work at, back around 1999, and I got it quite cheaply after Dad (knowing I was amplifier-less at the time) tipped me off about it. You couldn't get JJ or EH 7591s back then; your only shot was at used pulls (mainly from Fisher hi-fi amps), and even then they were expensive. The previous owner probably thought it could no longer be retubed fresh, and gave up on it. Imagine my delight when I brushed the dust off of it five or six years later, and discovered that new 7591s had become available since then. :)

It will be interesting to see how the pedal setup works out. That's going to be a real challenge, but I'm looking forward to it.

C.K.