sound crisis for big battle, need advice

Hey everyone.

Im the lead guitarist for a pretty decent rock/ metal band named EffervescenT. We're very good but our equipment prohibits our talent to be heard. Id like to tell you the availible equipment we have and hope to get some advice on how to get the best sounds possible.

1. The Battle of the Bands that we are in will be held in a gymnasium; EQ settings and volume setting would be helpful to us since we're not used to the acoustics of such a venue.

2. My guitar goes through a peavy 112 bandit, 80 watts, 100 8OHMS. I run a cord from the external speaker jack to an 100watt PA speaker. My guitar (IBANEZ RG570) goes through a korg AX1000G

3. The rhythem guitarist goes through a Crate amp, which houses 2x12's (100 watts, 1258OHMS). For some reason his external speaker jack doesnt work properly therefore he cant go stereo. His guitar (an IBANEZ RG) goes through a Digitech RP3.

4. The bassist goes through three different amps, a 30 watt RMS amp (which acts as a pre-amp) to a hartke 40 watt amp (which goes to) a 100watt PA speaker. His Hondo bass goes through a Zoom 505 guitar pedal.

5. The vocals; our vocal PA consists of 4 speakers (WE HAVE NO STANDS); 2 60 watt KUSTOM, and two 125watt speaks. The actual system itself is a Kustom 4-channel PA. The lead singer's mic (shure) goes through a DOD votech pedal, and my mic (shure) is going direct.

6. As for drums, we dont mic the drums, but our drummer has a DW set with a crash and ride cymbals. The only thing I'd like help with on the drums is perhaps how to arrange the various speakers and amps around them so they don't drown out the sound.

Thanks to all who reply...
We need to sound great at this show

Get a new amp. The Bandit 1x12 is okay for practise, but it will not cut it live. Try to get a half stack. A tube amp would be best, but you could try a modeling amp. Don't settle for less than a 2x12.
Tone is vitally important to a gig, make sure your sound is as good as possible before the show.
Going direct into the board isn't a very good idea, your tone will suffer, and you'll have trouble hearing yourself.
If you can't get a better amp, try to set your amp on something so it's closer to head level.

what should i do instead of going direct? and how should i arrange the PA speaks so vocals can be heard clearly?

NEED MORE HELP GUYS!!!!

Don't know if you have monitors for the singers to hear themselves, but generally you should place the PA speakers on the far left and far right of your band setup, then a guitar amp on each side, then the bass and drums (a.k.a. the rhythym section) together in the middle. Try to set up the musicians as tight as possible and if you have no monitors, place the PA speakers further back so that the singers have a shot at hearing themselves. Try and set the PA up first and get a good sound with that, then blend the music in for your overall sound.

This is how my band sets up.


PA----------------Drums--(monitor)-------------PA
-------Guitar 1-------Bass---------Guitar 2------
---------------Singer-------Singer---------------
-------------------------------------------------
-------------Monitor-----------Monitor-----------

Lucky us, we have two chick singers in addition to the four musicians. The drummer sings a lot so he gets his own monitor. Hope this helps and good luck.

[Edited by John O'Carroll on 04-23-2001 at 03:38 PM]

thanks that does help A LOT!

Now of course I have a new problem.

We had another soundcheck today at the school. PA speaks and bass sounded perfect, but I had elevated my amp this time, and the guitar sounded like total trash; it wasnt that bad for my leads, but as soon as i broke into rhythym it just blew.

Any certain way I should have my EQ setup? Or the specifics on the hieght of my amp?

Thanks

Originally posted by sixstringshredda
what should i do instead of going direct? and how should i arrange the PA speaks so vocals can be heard clearly?

Mic the amp. A Shure 57 is your best bet for a good guitar cab mic. Be sure to try different mic placements to get the best possible sound. You wouldn't believe the difference a well placed mic can make.

Originally posted by sixstringshredda
thanks that does help A LOT!

Now of course I have a new problem.

We had another soundcheck today at the school. PA speaks and bass sounded perfect, but I had elevated my amp this time, and the guitar sounded like total trash; it wasnt that bad for my leads, but as soon as i broke into rhythym it just blew.

Any certain way I should have my EQ setup? Or the specifics on the hieght of my amp?

Thanks

It's a good thing you noticed the sound differance ahead of time, that's the sound you're audience would've heard. Mess with your eq to squeeze the best possible sound out of it. I stronly reccomend getiing a good tube or modeling (but tubes sound better in my opinion) half stack if you plan on gigging. Those new Marshall AVT amps (especially the 150 watt ones) sound reaaly good too.
Look around ugbm.com if you're short on cash. The best value on a new 4x12 is the Carvin Legacy cab (EXELLENT price, and Celestion Vintage 30's, which are arguably the best speakers for distortion made), by the way.

If getting a new amp isn't a possibility, a Boss Metal Zone and GE-7 will do wonders for your tone (when set up properly), both of which you can find cheaply at ugbm.com . But you probably won't be satisfed until you have a good half stack (the closed back 4x12 cab is a must for hard rock/metal).

I almost forgot, you probably will need to tweak your amp settings one the gymnasium is full of people, they'll affect the acoustics of the building.

Once you get your tone worked out, there is only one thing left to do: KICK ASS AND TAKE NAMES!

Your bassist should upgrade his bass, he'll be hard pressed to get a good sound out of a Hondo. Have him look around http://www.musicyo.com , their Tobias basses are VERY good (and affordable). The singer may want to invest in a Shure 58, also.

thanks a lot guys. I was definately planning on getting a half stack, but its not a reality before this concert (it's this saturday).

Another question; if I'm to mic the amp, can the mic go right to an ext. speaker? or will I need a pre-amp, or mixer first?

Should the amp be low to the ground, mid-height, ear level?

Where should I mic the amp? I've always close miked it for recording, but would that work well in a live situation? Or would it be better to keep the mic a little off?

BTW my current EQ settings are (the typical METAL settings)

Bass:10
Mid:2
High:8

then my amp has a PRESENCE: 6
and something called "T. Dynamics", I ahve no clue what that is but it sounds good at 100%.

I was so pissed today cuz in the garage it sounded wonderful, and at the gym it sounded very nasally....

keep the advice coming please ;)

1. Run the mic into the board (mixer). If your board has any onboard eq, you can shape your tone even more. Have the other guitarist play your through your rig while you tweak the settings yourself.

2. Mid height with a bit of a tilt would probably be your best bet, you'll be able to hear yourself better (try to visualize the sound waves pumping from the speaker. If you're having trouble hearing yourself, move your head directly into the path of the waves. This is where the tilting comes in handy.
~~ ~~~
EX: ~~ (you)~
~~~ ~~ (<-waves)
(speaker)-> \ ~~ ~~ ~~
\ ~~ ~~
\ ~~
This will also ensure that the crowd hears the (refined miced & eqed) sound from the PA speakers more than your amp, making mixing easier on the sound guy.

3. Experiment heavily with different mic placements. Personally, I perfer to mic a little back and to the left of the speaker (but I'm using a closed back 4x12, so your results will more than likely differ). The best way I've found to look for "sweet spots" is to put on a set of studio headphones from the board, have someone play your guitar, and move the mic all around. Just have them stop where it sounds best. Also, make sure the gain on the board isn't too high. You want the distortion to come from the amp, not the mic. You'll have a bad tone and lots of feedback if you've got that mic too hot.

4. You're tone settins are subjective to your own personal taste, but try to have your tone fit the band's mix well. Be especially careful with the highs and presence. If you don't have enough of them, you'll get lost in the mix, but if you have too many you'll screw up the rest of the band's sound. Having too many highs/presence is a common tonal mistake that guitarists new to the band thing make. Also, since you're the lead player, you may consider adding a just a little bit more mids. They'll make your leads stick out a bit more. An eq or seperate distotion pedal comes in handy here, because you can just kick one of them in when you do a solo, giving you more mids and a volume boost when you need them, then letting you return to your normal rythm sound/volume.

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask. A good tone and mix can make or break a gig.

I don't know if micing your amp is a good idea. Considering your PA setup, I think the vocals will have a problem being heard clearly (for both the audience and the band). Maybe, you can convince your rhythym player to switch amps for this gig (seeing how important it is) until you can upgrade your rig. His Crate should give you a better sound and I'd think he could get by with your Peavey. Failing that, I definitely agree with loner about adding mids at the amp. I'm not familiar with the AX1000G; can't the patches in that tweak EQ settings for your scooped mids, etc. ?

Originally posted by sixstringshredda
Mid:2

That's the reason why your amp sounds bad.
The higher the volume, the less mid-frequencies the human ear picks up. Meaning, if your amp sounds good at low volumes with this EQ setting, chances are it will sound like crap at a higher volume.(= equal loudness theory)
Also, in a band situation, you need the mids(wich are the natural frequencies of a guitar) to cut throught the total mix of the band.

My suggestion, boost the mids!


Greetz, TK

thanks a lot guys. I did boost my mids and i noticed an extreme difference. Hopefully if we win we can use the money for better equipment.

Anybody know what makes a good amp stand and would be availible to me very easily? Sam Ash has none and Guitar Center has ones that cost $200!!

Thanks for everything, I'll let you guys know how it goes (its this saturday!), and if you're interested check us out at http://www.angelfire.com/band/effervescent . you can download some of our songs, but the only ones availible are with our old drummer and he sucks.

The live recordings arent that bad though.

Peace and chicken grease

tony

Carvin.com has a good amp stand (MA12) for $29.