For the last time :Modes

Well i was sitting here and reading all the smarth stuff you guys said about scales and modes but one thing i cant understand...
if the modes is the scale, starting with different note, how could it be that when we play for example the c myxolidian we still start playing with c? another thing i can't get is why the same myxolidian mode can't be called G major/ ionian????

Here's another one. Now I think I have finally gotten modes, but I just need some clarification on a few things. If you play the mode starting on the third note of the C major scale, you are playing the E phrygian mode, correct? or are you playing C phrygian? See I think I get it, except for the naming.

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Originally posted by James:
Here's another one. Now I think I have finally gotten modes, but I just need some clarification on a few things. If you play the mode starting on the third note of the C major scale, you are playing the E phrygian mode, correct? or are you playing C phrygian? See I think I get it, except for the naming.

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yeah, you're right. that would be the E Phrygian mode not C. C Ionian = E Phrygian in a way. The notes are the same but their relations are not in other words their content is the same but the form is different. Think of it this way, modes are moods. The Lydian represents a different mood than the Ionian despite their similarity.

If that makes any sense http://shredlikehell.com

in other words you can say that any scale is just a mode of other one?
like Am is just a mode of C (i cant remmember it's name anyway)
so what is the difference between keys??
why do i say this song is played in C key
and not in Am or do i say the opposite?
how do i know??? and i repeat the question i asked before if one of the modes of C is Am
then why when i'm playing i'm playing it as different scales... i mean once i play as the root note (i mean the 1 one) is a
and another time is c... i mean it's the same notes, just different names and positions so what the sense??

Ouh yes.. i forgot something...
Am chord is must be another chord too, which is probably some strage C chord, right?
so basicly any guitar chord has at least 2 names right??
does it helps us anyway? or do i get wrong?

Ok I'm going to give a shot at answering one of your questions. If I'm wrong, I hope someone will correct me. The reason why you say a song is in the key of C and not Am is because typically a song's chord progression will start with the first note of the scale, so a song in the key of C may go C-D-G, whereas a song in the key of Am would go A-C-B. Now if you were to do a solo over either of these, you could use either the A Minor scale or the C Ionian scale, because the notes are the same. did that help at all? Moreover, was I right? I'm still a beginner at this theory stuff too

I've said it before and I'll say it again - there is NO substitute for a real live human being guitar teacher.

I agree, a real teacher helps a lot. Did answer his question correctly though?

in my opinion there is really no textbook way to explain this kind of thing. When i try to find out what key a song is in, I can 'feel' the root. My ear hears it and I just know it somehow. As for defining a key, when you say something is in the key of C, it means that the song is based roughly around C as a singular note or chord. It may not necessarily start or even end on C (though it usually does), but it will be the most played and emphasized note.

True you could use any mode of C (A minor, E phrygian, G mixolydian, etc.) and it would sound okay, but when I solo over a chord progression I don't lock my mind into thinking that I'm playing C ionian. Though I may use the C ionian shape on the fretboard, I focus on the chord tones of whatever chord is currently being played and try to make all the changes flow smoothly so the listener doesn't notice.

For beginners to theory, start with textbook definitions and simple exercises. I was at that point too, and as I became familiar and confident with it, I took the theory I learned and 'warped' it in a way that made it mine so I could work with it in an efficient way for me. Everbody has their own way of viewing how it all fits together, just like in perceiving all of life, and you have to find your way.

thanks to all the people there who answered
my question...but basicly one small thing i dont get... when i'm playing mode of any scale do i have to start playing it with the scale tonic or with the mode tonic??
also the stuff with the romian numbers...
it just shows me which chords i should use right?
and what is the difference between natural minor and another minor mode??
ok so there are more then one thing anyway
p.s ekstasis i agree with you about the human teacher... i have one but the school where i learn guitar was closed for the 2 last weeks for summer vacation so i didnt have chance to ask my teacher

To answer your first question: if you were to play a mode from begining to end, you would start with the root of the mode. But if you're using a particular mode to solo, you don't need to start with it.

The difference between natural minor and other minor scales (the most common are harmonic minor and melodic ascending minor) are the diferences in intervals. Here are the intervals for the following scales.

Natural Minor: M2,m2,M2,M2,m2,M2,M2
Harmonic Minor: M2,m2,M2,M2,m2,A2,m2
Ascending Minor: M2,m2,M2,M2,M2,M2,m2

In case your unfamiliar with the abreviations, M2 is a whole step, m2 is a half step and the a2 in harmonic minor is an augmented second (a step and a half).

phrygian and dorian are also condsidered minor modes, but classical music really only utilized the other three (see above).

Ok to close this subject:
when i'm playing C ionian can i use one of the modes to the solo?
and should i change the chords or can i keep the chords of the C ionian?

Yes you can use any mode derived of the C Major scale to solo over a song in the key of C Major. I don't really understand the other question.

As i know James when playing different modes
it's sometimes good to use other chords then the ionian mode chords...
like in C mixolydian it's sounds better to use C7 another 7's chords...
so my questions was if i should change the chords like in this case or to stay with the chords of the ionian mode...
hope this makes sense

I think I see what you're saying so let me try and jump in here. In a blues form, you are playing all 7th chords, the I7, the IV7, and the V7. It's not a diatonic form. If you want to solo using the harmonic minor or any of its modes (the fifth is the only widely used one) then you should be playing over chords derived from the harmonic minor scale. There are some chords in this scale that cannot be derived from the major scale. There's a Minor/Major 7 chord on the root, and an augmented chord too. I don't feel like listing them, but if u sit and stack thirds you can figure it out. Is that what your question was?