which recorder help

Hi. I have played guitar for three years, and I want to get some sort of recorder. I dont have money for a huge professional setup, so I think I just want a little portable one for just having fun and making demos. I have narrowed it down to these 3...

1) Korg ToneWorks Pandora PXR4 4-Track Digital Recording Studio
2) Boss BR-864 8-Track Multitrack Recorder
3) Tascam Pocketstudio 5

Please help me in choosing! Thanks!

Just a thought but have you considered just getting ProTools Free?
8 Tracks of audio for nothing.

http://www.digidesign.com/ptfree/

Id go with the PRX4 and with this you get all the expertise at www.korgstudoes.com thrown in for free.

I have owned the Korg D1200 and D1600 and Korg make good kit. The D1200 is brilliant and much better / more versatile / bigger bang for your buck than the PRX4 (but not as portable) and Id recommend it to anyone. You can pick one up second hand for about 4-500 bucks on eBay (get the mkI not the MK II, the difference is price tag and a paint job !). If you decide to go the computer rout later on, you can export tracks via a USB port.

Id not go the computer rout as too many things can go wrong. Although computer recording is more versatile and has a better interface than the D1200 etc, with the stand alones you don't have to worry about:
Stability,
system resources running out,
plug-ins,
plug in compatibility,
system configuration,
latency,
access to inputs and outputs,
non-standard interfaces,
crappy pre amps,
crappy ADA conversion...
the list goes on.

Great if you know computers inside out but bad if you don't.

heh.... guess we're never gonna agree on this one eh. :rolleyes:
All I can say in the computers defence is once you get more heavily into recording you're going to find limitations using a desktop unit
For instance, on a weekly basis you could do 128 tracks of music, open a separate window and do 32 tracks of harmonies, move it over to your original song and then have separate effects on each track. Then 2 weeks into doing your song you decide to move all the harmonies to the end of the song and transpose the whole thing up a step, add a B4 organ, a Korg Poly 600 and a Pro52 synth, 40 samples of sound effects, then extend the song by an extra 16 bars by taking the middle of the tune and moving it to the end and adding an 8 part guitar harmony. Then decide to replace the entire drum section with drum loops and reverse the piano section in the middle. By the time you've finished, your song is about 4GB in size and you still have to master it..ie, add compression, limitation and EQ so all your tunes have the same volume and sound. hmm.. and then you decide you want to add a horn and string section so you go back and use Halion or SampleTank to put a full orchestra in your song.
Total time to do all that on a computer... about 8 hours while watching TV.

On a desktop unit I'd go nuts scrolling through menus and trying to keep track of what's where without being able to see graphically what the song looks like. The best part is the plug ins and VSTi's. 3 samplers, 4 drum machines, 15 keyboards, 20GB of drum loops, an orchestral section etc.., 20 reverb units, voice generators, echo units, amp simulators etc.. and it all fits inside the computer.
... so there..thhhppppt

I don't think we really disagree ! Im not saying DAWs are better than PCs.

I think the computer rout is much more versatile, productive and has a better interface than the DAWs however that makes them more complicated and expensive.

When you are starting off, if you are like me, you want to do some tracking, mixing and thats it, and you want to do it on a system that works and you don't have to spend all day not only figuring out the software butt also configuring the hardware.

DAWs are custom made computers that do one thing, record stuff !!

They are set up and ready to go ans all you have to do is learn how to use them.

ok... but I still win cause I'm cuter. :D

I guess I just don't see the hardware and software issue as being hard to figure out. I also think it's cheaper.
For instance, buy a used G3 Beige Mac, ProTools Free, a small behringer mixer and you've got 8 channels of audio and midi for about $300. Plus it works with all VST plugins and VSTi's so there tons of freeware reverbs and synths available.
As far as getting it running... just run the install program, plug your guitar into the mixer, the mixer into the 1/8" sound input. Hit record and you're done.
It just seems a whole lot easier than figuring out multiple scrolling menus on a DAW.

Plus the biggest issue for me is if you ever have any problems with your unit, you'll have to take the whole thing in for repairs. If it doesn't have a local authorized repair service you'll be in for a long wait. If it's out of warranty, it'll cost you a fortune.
I have very bad memories of my old Fostex 250 4-track.
I treated it with kid gloves but it still wore out in about 2 years.

Naa I win cos I'm uglier and much madder !

Wiring an analogue mixing desk up to a mac is not that easy !

Can you record 8 track of 16 bit simultaneously, all on independent tracks ?

Not with the standard USB desks I have been looking at (that start at 400 bucks)?

Can you record more than 2 channels at once ?

In fact the answer is no.

The I/O is totally dependent upon your audio interface and if you want to do 2 channels at once it will cost you much more than 300 bucks !

I've never run into a situation where I'd need more than one input.
If I'm doing solo stuff all I use is one input at a time.
If I record a band, I do it the same way we used to do it with our old 16 track analogue studio. Start with the drums, miked in stereo and (playing to a click so you can add midi keyboards later). Have the whole band play but only record the drums (in a drum room obviously). Then have each musician overdub his part one guy at a time.
The only disadvantage is you can't record independant rough tracks of each musician. But hopefully, before the band comes into the studio they know their material well enough that they don't need it. The tracks would be erased anyways so you just have the whole band play the tune on each run through and record one instrument at a time.
I don't think I've ever been in a studio where we didn't record each instrument separately...even going back to the real early 8 track days. We'd always spend a few hours setting up the drums and getting those down first before moving on to the other instruments.

I can see your point for multiple inputs and tracks if you're only recording live bands but most bands in the studio do it one track at a time.
And if it's absolutely necessary, just go out and get the appropriate sound cards with multiple inputs.

And what's so hard about wiring a mixer to your Mac? Take the 1/4" stereo outputs to a 1/8" plug and shove it in the input. Go to the Sound control panel and select Play Thru. You might have to do some reading up on the different ways of monitoring, but no less than you'd have to learn with a DAW.

... and I win cause I'm the bestest and smartyerist so there :cool:

Whatever, horses for causes, I really like my set up and I started with a Tascam 424 mk II which is finally being put out to pasture this week when my new desk arrives !! 18 track 4 buss Peavey !! Whooohoo !

I still use DAW for two reasons:

1) stability (hasn't crashed in living memory)

2) trigger recording

I still think that for a beginner A DAW is better as there are less distractions / stuff to go wrong. All the effects are included and you can pick up a good one for about 4-500 bucks.

However there are limits to what they can do. The Korgs midi capabilities are lame. The pre amps are less than stellar. The interface is crap etc etc however as I only use the beast for tracking and I bypass the pre-amps by using an S/P DIF input I'm not bothered. Exporting tracks is easy so I'm a happy camper. However For some one who wants to use a lot of midi I can see they would be very limiting.

Having gone down both paths, I still like 'em but that is mainly due to the way I work !! Though saying that I will not be forking out 3-4 k for a high end korg or Rolland as I really think they are massively over priced and I don't care about automated faders !! I can do that with Sonar and Id rather have a G5 running Logic Pro 7.

This is truly a CLASH OF THE TITANS!!!!!

I think I'm jaded against desktop units cause I remember what it was like to record things linearly all the time on my old 4 track.
Once I started looking at things graphically it changed everything. Like this kinda stuff...

You get to a point where you can just look at the screen and see all the parts of your song like it's on a spreadsheet or something.
Ya drag and drop the little boxes and move entire sections around and build the song up using everything from loops to sound effects to whatever.
Half the time you don't even have to listen to it...you just remember where the parts are.

Naaa I'm not clashing !!!

Just doing my thing !!

Dude that is Exactly the same reason I got into computer recording, the interface is sooooo much better and there is a million Midi possibilities !!

Mid drums are just a god send ! I have a DTXpress II that I use as a midi controller, record the note and velocity and pick my sounds later. I have been known to use the DR770 as a midi controller but as it is not GM compatible it is a bit of a pain.

It dose make a nice sound though so I keep it !

However I do want some real cymbals at some point cos all the midi ones I have are whey over compressed !

Have ya ever tried using drum loops? (those things that are royalty free and recorded professionally). Like get jazz, rock, afro-cuban and electronic then you just piece them together by either taking sections, whole parts or individual hits.
To write a song, just import about 50 of them and drag em around until you have a song. Then if you want to strengthen the beat, add some midi kick, snare and cymbals.
There's a kewl program called ReCycle too. It lets you take a drum loop (or any loop) and splice it up so that you can alter its bpm. Like you can take a 90bpm drum loop and speed it up to 120bpm without any noticeable sound change.

Having a DTExpress II I can make my own loops, not difficult as I just record the Midi out using Sonar. I can then quantize, loop, add fills (either in real time or as individual hits using midi and Im good to go !

If I use Sonar I can then alter tempo / assigned sound and it is just cool !

I may have a hunt for some cymbal samples as a set or real cymbals is hard to attenuate !! SO any advice you have would be good there !

Originally Posted by: Dr_simonNaaa I'm not clashing !!!

Just doing my thing !!

You know what? This is a wicked discussion, and we should somehow preserve this as some kind of tutorial or lesson. A pros & cons type thing. I'm really digging the experience and knowledge that's being put forth here... we should get the two of you to do up some kind of article each on PC vs. standalone from each perspective and then post it up on the main page.

Dood, if you want cymbal samples, I've got tons of em. Just gimme an email address that can handle several megabytes and I'll send em to ya.

For loops, I wish I could send you some full kit discs to try out but the files are too big. I've been using drum machines for about 10 years & can get decent results, but the sound from a pro drum recording by a real drummer beats it all to hell. And having an experienced drummer layering a loop can take you in a totally different direction than making something up yourself.

If you're using a drum machine, one thing I found helps a lot is to buy a real cymbal or two and several types of drum sticks. (heavy, lite, mallets and brushes or use about 20 thin wooden dowels taped together on one end)

Just adding a subtle ride to a song makes it sound 100% better and the variety of sounds you get from the crown to the edges of the cymbal can't be duplicated with samples...plus there's nothing like a crash that actually sustains for 90 seconds instead of being faded out like most samples & drum machines.

The DTExpress is also about me playing real the drums (and a full acoustic kit is just not practical) however if you could send the samples to my yahoo account Id appreciate it !

They're on the way. There's about 80MB of various cymbal sizes. Hopefully it'll work this time, my internet's been going out all day. One little snow storm and all hell breaks loose. :rolleyes: I'll keep trying till you get it.
If ya want to try some loops out or need any other kit parts too, lemme know.

btw: I recorded this example of some pro drum loops to give ya an idea of using stuff like Acid loops etc. I loaded about 50 then randomly picked a bunch. Dragged em around until they sounded half decent. Then recorded some guitars, a bass and some strings. Basically I got it done in under 15 minutes so it's kinda raw but the idea here is that the drum beats and rolls that randomly occur can send you off in new directions. Like the offbeat snare in the first part I would never think of.
The only problem with loops is sometimes you have to duplicate parts using a drum machine cause a loop will contain something that you don't want. Like the second part of this has a really loud cowbell that's mixed in with the drum track. The only way to get rid of it would be to redo the drums.
I also had to add extra cymbals and an additional kick drum to follow the bass.

http://s93744050.onlinehome.us/mp3/track37.mp3

:Howdy dood...
I keep getting the files bounced back with "Mail error. The mailbox is temporarily full; try again later." I tried reducing it with zip to about 60MB but it's still bouncing.
If emailing doesn't work, I'll temporarily remove some stuff off my server to make room and give you a link where you can get them.
... have to do it quick tho, cause my guitartricks stuff will be offline while you're grabbin it.

My email account should be fine. Are you putting the little "_"'s in ? That has been known to trip people up i the past. Anyway if you want to post it on line let me know and Ill download it ASAP. Evenings are good for me.

I will send you a phone number to make it spuer speedy if you like.