back to basics for me-- start w/ major scales

O.K, i've been playing for a while now,but i'm ready to move out of the power chord box and get on something more suitable to all styles of music (especially playing lead).
I don't need explainations of scales, modes, intervals, etc., but where I really really really need input is on actual fingerings for the major scales. I use the alternate major fingering patterns to work on my economy picking (right out of the adam kadmon exercise book). So the big question is....(all you shredders need to give me feedback)... when playing for example the first three notes of the F major scale starting on the low e string, should I use my index, middle, and pinky for the strech between 1,3,5, or should I use (uncomfortable for me, but if it's the best way then i'll adapt) my index, ring, and pinky for the 1,3,5? This W,W interval occurs in every pattern, so I want to know what fingers should be used. If I've confused everyone too much now i will show an example of what fingers i use to play the major scale (alternate) pattern 1

EX1. what I do now} EX2. what is in the book}
1-3-4{E} 1-3-4
1-3-4{B} 1-3-4
1-2-4{G} 2-3-4
1-2-4{D} 2-3-4
1-2-4{A} 1-3-4
1-2-4{E} 1-3-4

Help!!!!!!!, I can't move to the minor scales until I have gotten the right fingerings for the major scale patterns up to a good speed.

Ok, most shredders use the classical approach to how they finger scales. I think it's alot more comfortable and helps tremendously with dexterity. The idea is when you have a scale pattern that is clearly boxed in, you assign each finger to each fret. Index to the lowest. So if the pattern was 1, 3, 4. Index on 1, ring on 3, and pinky on 4. If it was 1, 2, 4. Index on 1, middle on 2, and pinky on 4. Hopefully that makes sense, I'll try a diagram in case it didn't.


|---|---|---|---|---|-----|
|-*-|---|---|---|---|-----|
|---|---|-*-|---|-*-|-----|
|---|---|-*-|---|-*-|-----|
|-*-|---|---|---|---|-----|
|---|-i-|-m-|-r-|-p-|-(p)-|


If you didn't notice that is a diagram of the fret-board, and how you would assign each finger to each fret. (p) is still the pinky, so generally when a note is extended outside the box, you can either slide your pinky up and stretch to reach that fret. An example pattern is 5, 7, 9. On 9 you would use your pinky. If you have to, because it not hard to just move it down a string so it's the 4th fret (5th on B). Then resume that pattern from there. Any questions?

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 01-10-2004 at 10:36 AM]

I think the beer was doing more talking than I was when I drew my diagram. Let me try to explain better. Still using the F Maj scale, the pattern of the fretted notes would be like so: [Fretted notes]
pattern1 pattern2 etc etc to all 7
-3- -5- -6 - - - -5- -6- -8 - - - - -
-3- -5- -6 - - - -5- -6- -8 - - - - -
-2- -3- -5 - - - -3- -5- -7 - - - - -
-2- -3- -5 - - - -3- -5- -7 - - - - -
-1- -3- -5 - - - -3- -5- -7 - - - - -
-1- -3- -5 - - - -3- -5- -6 - - - - -

now, my dilemna is.. what fingers work best with speed to play the W,W gaps (i.e 1-3-5 or 3-5-7). Should i use index, middle, pinky respectively? Or is it better to learn to use index, ring, pinky for these? I can adapt to use either, but I want to know in the long run which way to fret would be better (faster)? Hope i've explained better this time.

Does it explicitly say you have to practice that scale that way, because ultimately stretching the hand farther than normal slows it down. There is an easier way to play the F major scale. But out of respect for what your asking, it's your call either one will work, speed will eventually grow as you get used to doing it one way. So choose one and stick with it. I generally use index-middle-pinky, just because I can stretch my index to middle farther than ring to pinky.

Well, that explains it alot more for me. By the way, if there are better patterns to learn the major scales on, please point me in the right direction. But you did answer my question about the finger streches. I am definately not set in practing scales one particular way. I am trying to dust off my knowlege of theory and bring it out of storage in the old noggin.

Yeah the basic major scale pattern on the guitar is.

Major scale Box (R = root: i = index finger, m = middle, r = ring, p = pinky)

e|-X-|-R-|---|-X-|---|
b|---|-X-|---|-X-|---|
g|-X-|---|-X-|-X-|---|
d|-X-|---|-X-|-R-|---|
a|-X-|-X-|---|-X-|---|
e|---|-R-|---|-X-|---|
i m r p


This is only one of a many ways to play this scale, but you'll see alot of quick passages are boxed in a similar way. So if you can master the box fashion it won't be hard to get those faster licks. The difference between what you had and what I wrote above is instead of stretching for the 5th fret, I just dropped it down a string. So your version of the F major scale (1-3-5), could be played...


d-----------0-2-3--etc.
a-----0-1-3--------
e-1-3--------------
i r i r m r or
m p m p r p


The 5th fret on E is the same note as open A.

This is the easier way and most common. Easy is not always right, there will be times when you have to stretch (Van Halen's tapping solo on "hot for teacher" is an example of having to stretch). If the book you're learning from says to practice it that way, you should. There's probably a good reason, but the box position you should definitely master and you'll definitely be faster with it. Alot of really fast runs use it because you don't need to move the hand up or down the fretboard, thus less loss of speed.

That is the response I was expecting as far as the traditional fingering for major scales. I am not postive, but aren't there other boxes for major scales based on the style of fingering you just explained to me? I'm sorry to keep answering posts with more questions, it's just that I want to progress as fast as I can with my technique so that I can focus more on theory, the real meat and potatoes! The book I referred to is one of the guitar grimoire series books, this particular book focuses mainly on economy picking technique and the F Maj scales. It also includes chromatic exercises, but I practice those all the time with more variations than the book. It's just a tool, but if I am learning unusable technique and bad habits, then it will be stowed away for later use.

Yes. There are many different fingerings for major scales. I was going to write about it on the last post, but I didn't want to write to much or take a chance on confusing you. Since you seem to understand what I was saying, yes the box (sometimes called 3-note per string) has different variations.

The most important to learn are each 5 positions which draws from the start root of each of the 5 different strings (there are 6, but 2 e strings count as one). So if your starting root was on the A string instead of the E, the pattern would be different. Here's the pattern if it's on A.


e|---|---|---|-X-|---|-X-|-R-|
b|---|-X-|---|-X-|-X-|---|-X-|
g|-X-|---|-X-|-R-|---|---|---|
d|-X-|-X-|---|-X-|---|---|---|
a|-x-|-R-|---|-X-|---|---|---|
e|---|-x-|---|-x-|---|---|---|
i m r p last 2 strings it becomes.
i slide i m r p


Work them out for each string, if you don't already have them somewhere. The small x's signify the notes of the scale that exist before the starting root, you don't need to practice them but at least be familiar with them.

The other important one, but doesn't take as much effort, is if the root note is an open string. Here's what that one looks like on open E.


e|---|-X-|---|-X-|---|
b|---|-X-|---|-X-|---|
g|-X-|-X-|---|-X-|---|
d|-X-|-R-|---|-X-|---|
a|---|-X-|---|-X-|---|
e|---|-X-|---|-X-|---|


Then figure that pattern for each of the 5 different strings.

Once your familar with all those patterns: root on each of the 5 different strings, and when the root is an open string. You have a good grip on your major scale, and you should be able to play any major scale sequence anywhere on the neck. Beginners get stuck here because they usually only learn one position or just a few and then find it hard to find the scales at different points on the neck.

Once you get past that, then I'm sure you'll start learning the minor scale, then harmonic and melodic minor, and then whole-tone and other symmetric scales. Doing this for each of these scales will not only improve your scale knowledge but your dexterity at playing in many areas. You can use this as it applies to what your learning out of the book you got.

The stretching version (1-3-5) is not a bad habit, many guitarists use that at certain points in a riff. As for using it when practicing scales, it can become awkward and may cause alittle strain especially on the lower frets. Up higher above the 10th fret or on, it's not so bad. Use the stretching only if you must, as in special purposes.

If your wanting to learn theory, you should learn theory while your learning your scales. So if your learning your major scale, you should read up on the theory behind the major scale. The "wwh" step thing, intervals, and chord that come from each of the tones in the scale. I wouldn't read up on major scale theory while practicing the minor scales, or learn all the scales then try to learn theory all at once. As your learning something, learn theory about it at the same time. Your mind is like a library, if you catalogue all your ideas together, there's less chance of getting confused.

I appreciate you spending the time to instruct me on what I am sure are very basic guitar techniques. I know that there is never one "right" way to do things, and this certainly applies to guitar. I have a couple of years of classical music theory underneath my belt, and although it has been years since I have analyzed a piece of music, I am pretty excited to have a chance to realize my full potential as a musician under a different medium (guitar). I played bassoon for years, and could have made a career out of it, if not for the fact that I found it exceptionally boring playing strictly classical pieces. What is funny is that everyone I have known that has tried to play the bassoon has said that it is extremely hard to play well; I feel the same way about guitar. It is easy to play, but not easy to play well. I just hope that my neophyte nature of the guitar will not dissuade anyone from answering the many questions I have. Just to throw it out there... I am self taught, but are there any particular training materials that would be suggested as far as technique building (I still have alot of theory books, I am squared away on that front).

Don't worry about it, I apologize for my epexegesis of something you clearly already understand also. Yeah I have heard wind instruments are tough to play. Guitar is easy once you get the hang of it, mastering it is the difficult part since there is so much that can be done. If you want to better your technique, it would be in your best interest to seek out a guitar teacher. AT least for him/her to overlook your playing and catch any bad habits. Then show you the correct way to remedy it. If you haven't already done so, I suggest that as a first step. Once you hook up with a teacher. Have him/her show you different guitar techniques, like alternate picking to sweep picking, legato to staccato. I'm sure your familiar with some of these words since your a classical musician, but there is a slightly different approach on guitar from a bassoon. You'll need someone to show the correct way to perform these techniques. I'm in no way pushing you off, but having someone interactively work with you is the best way to better technique. Internet and other self-taught mediums just aren't satisfactory enough. If you still have questions I would be more than willing to do my best to answer them.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 01-12-2004 at 11:18 PM]