time signatures

Have you tried using Finale? Its probably one of thee most flexible music notation devices out there.
What have you got against odd time signatures? You must not be a big Frank Zappa or Dave Brubeck fan then.

I am an avid fan of Zappa, (we were born in the same city) and a fan of Brubeck, Parker, Dizzy and even Charles Ives.
I have no problem with oddball time signs, unless it can be written or read more simply. This can become a major can of worms, because of the different methods of teaching. For example, there are not endless possibilities for playing one beat. Endless possibilities are not possible for humans to play. Think maybe, not play. Especially the average player. It's rare to play a Waltz any more, except maybe Zydeco. To me as a writer and a reader, time signs don't say much without more info. 30 years ago, yes, today, no.
Bluesette is not a waltz. Sort of, sounds like one.

My problem is getting the computer to notate and perform correctly. Early Finales, weren't very good. Haven't checked lately. I've been seriously thinking about junking my Cakewalk investment, because Cake spends no time on the writing side of the program, but it's performance of written (not recorded) is very reasonable. I've conquered its earlier dropout problems. AudioPro 4 works, with my algorithms, sounds and almost notates correctly. I don't like the Sonar because it is not writer oriented. (makes placing notes very complicated) And it's very difficult to modify and play with it. I simply want a program that can play and write evenly a 5 to 7 note figure (or rather an odd ball figure) on one beat without having to modify the time signature and tempo in the process and it sound correct. All notes occupy a space in time. The programs I have tried do not allow this. You either have notation or performance,
not both. The computer won't allow you to fudge. Only and unless you fudge it.

A lot of classical composers, wrote oddball figures per beat. Bach and especially, Giulianni. G is real special about writing impromptu sections. Advanced players read and play this music like a walk in the park. You just can't walk through the park on the computer. Try taking an impromtu section of a classical guitar piece and write it within a computer and then have the computer play it correctly. One learns an awful lot about time and people's and even your own perception of it.

Originally posted by griphon2
I have no problem with oddball time signs, unless it can be written or read more simply. This can become a major can of worms, because of the different methods of teaching.

If it works for you, and you can make it simpler for yourself great. I find it easier to manage writing it as is. Sometimes writing a 5/4 as 4/4, or as Azreal said applying one over the other, can work although it causes the measures to be uneven. You’d have to write 5 measures of 4/4 for it to work out even. Since most musical measures are in groups of 2, 4, 8, and so on. This can cause some sort of confusion.

Originally posted by griphon2
For example, there are not endless possibilities for playing one beat. Endless possibilities are not possible for humans to play. Think maybe, not play. Especially the average player.

Well there are, but most don’t sound good so nobody uses them. If your thinking strictly, every time you play something it is different in some way. This is probably why you not getting absolutely accurate interpretation from music editing software on your computer, but I think it is possible something else.

Originally posted by griphon2
It's rare to play a Waltz any more, except maybe Zydeco. To me as a writer and a reader, time signs don't say much without more info. 30 years ago, yes, today, no.
Bluesette is not a waltz. Sort of, sounds like one.

Actually 3/4 is still pretty common, obviously not as much as 4/4 but it is still used. Now 6/8 is more common though than 3/4 from what I have heard.

Originally posted by griphon2
My problem is getting the computer to notate and perform correctly. I simply want a program that can play and write evenly a 5 to 7 note figure (or rather an odd ball figure) on one beat without having to modify the time signature and tempo in the process and it sound correct.

Are you playing this on guitar first, then transcribing what your playing, or are you just writing the music?? If your doing it on guitar and using a metronome, it should be easy for you to write an polyrhythmic and have it sound exactly like you played it. That is if your writing the rhythm correctly. If your not using a metronome, two things could be the problem. One is your not getting the tempo right to start with. Which is going to cause you a crap load of frustration. Try using a metronome and then figure it out. Second is your playing very expressively, which makes the tempo fluctuate, which midi software can‘t reproduce unless you write it in by hand. Some midi software programs have event lists where you can write it in, but that‘s a pain in the neck. But it can be done.

Since we are not as advanced as we all should wish. Midi music will is never sound exactly like you want it too. Most of the synth’s don’t sound anything like the actually instrument, and the playing is so strict that there is no human quality to it. You may just be too picky about how it sounds, your going to have to sacrifice either accuracy or performance. The new and better substitute for Midi is VST instruments, they sound more realistic and the “humanize” a lot better than midi.

Originally posted by griphon2
A lot of classical composers, wrote oddball figures per beat. Bach and especially, Giulianni. G is real special about writing impromptu sections. Advanced players read and play this music like a walk in the park. You just can't walk through the park on the computer. Try taking an impromtu section of a classical guitar piece and write it within a computer and then have the computer play it correctly. One learns an awful lot about time and people's and even your own perception of it.

That's because no one can keep a completely strict tempo. Like playing ever part at 88 bpm. Tempo always fluctuates and a computer is always strict unless you tell it otherwise.

I'm speachless...

Check Mate.

Ok. :confused:

btw - the best notation software out there at the moment is without a doubt Sibelius 2

I believe Sibelius is the standard for the European countries, while here in the states most publishers/colleges want everything in Finale format.

Thanks. For me, it's a hefty price in time and money. Thanks, though. I've been seriously thinking about another OS altogether. I still need to do more research before I get that drastic. Thanks again.

Yeah, that is the worst thing about those 2 programs. They cost a crapload of money. I was able to get a free copy of finale 2002 from a friend. Honestly I don't even use it. It's a great program but there are cheaper ones out there and they do everything you basically need to write music.

Chris Mood. You've asked me for some pure classical guitar. I have, honest, free charts or scores for this...

http://members.tripod.com/~griphon2/index-15.html


Torroba is a composer of and before my years that should be considered. Take a gander. I have the original scores.
desukane@toast.net.

I want to write an honest jazz site. It may come if I live long enough. Just look
http://griphon2.tripod.com/

It's a large site. And honest. (forget about copywrite rules.)

Nice midi-files, they sound good. I'll have to down load them and dump them into Finale and see If I can get the music to print up.
I don't believe I ever heard of Torroba, I liked what I've heard though. Have you ever listened to any of the Cuban born composer/guitarist Leo Brouwer? Very interesting stuff.

I'll have to check out the jazz site next.

Leo Brouwer kicks some serious ass - aswell as William Walton and Banjamin Britten

I love Leo's stuff (in the other world a Ralph Towner and Metheny fan). I have a few scores of his (Leo's), but haven't the time to sequence at the moment. (I'm in the middle of Bach Lute Suite No. 2, I'm thinking about re-transcribing and sequencing for 7 to 10 string guitar) William Walton, I've been looking to replace the score and to sequence the 5 bagatelles for about 13 years, now. They were stolen from me... a long sad story. There are a few Benjamin Britten pieces that I'd love to sequence. He still is a major Classical influence to me. Tedesco, also. I just can't afford to replace the scores at the moment. Thanks, greatly for the responses.

Most of my files are gif or pdf. Whatever I can recoup on the internet for free. Some are done out of my head or from recordings or both. (Classical Gas, Deerhunter Theme) Free scores are notoriously incorrect. One has to make logical and experience judgements. All pieces on my classical guitar site, I've played at some point in my playing years.
Trust me, not all perfectly. I haven't the chance to xerox a university or return to FL, where most of the pieces I need or want are available.
I don't think Finale converts well from Cake Audio Pro 4. I don't use Cake's natural numbers or algorithms. To my ear, they're not correct. Early Cake programs stifle notes. Newer programs make it difficult to enter notes by hand with my tried and true algorithms. I have Cake Home Studio 2002 if I need to convert formats. This stuff can get so really complex. I appreciate the interest, though.

[Edited by griphon2 on 06-25-2003 at 06:07 PM]

Hey Griphon....you said you used to live in Florida.?.? Did you attend the Unv. of Miami?

No. I went to USF, University of South Florida. Studied with Hilton Kean Jones in Composition.(at one time, Hilton, coordinated the superbowl festivities) I am a fan of Joe Diorio, we met in passing. I didn't meet Morse or Jaco. More favourites of mine. A friend of mine, that built my new bender knows most of the southern rockers in Fl. Fl in certain areas is a gold mine for guitar players. A very tough place to work.

I came real close to moving to Southern Florida and attending the Unv. of Miami graduate program in the mid 90's. It would seem like there would be a lot of work available there for musicians, and probably not as over saturated with players, say like Boston or New York.

I have been to New Orleans and the Gulf area a couple of times, the guys down there work a lot. Apparently all the real smoking players get picked up pretty quickly by touring acts, I wasn't real impressed with the guitar players I saw, except for this one blues band playing in a casino in Biloxi.