Chasing Chords / Keys

I want to improve my ability to not only chase chords (land on the correct root note), but also play over them more musically (not sound like I am stuck in a pentatonic box shape.) I know my major scale (1st position only) and all 5 shapes of the major and minor pentatonic scales- and a few modes. 

I know that not all pieces fit into one key neatly. In a simple tune, say blues, I can generally play well within the key e.g., Am penta and land on the correct note (emphasize it) when the chord changes. However, in other, more complicated pieces, should I endeavor to stay all within the "key" at all times or should I change scales for each chord? 

Sadly, I mostly have memorized shapes. I really do not have a particularly good ear- or flexibility to dance around the fretboard. I still use a digital tuner! I am trying to learn and hear all the notes on the fretboard but it is quite challenging.  The issue I have is when I hear a more complex piece (not simple and predictable Blues) and the standard scale does not always seem to work.

In a piece I would like to learn (below), this cat is jamming with arpeggios, random licks and it is extremely musical. I suspect he is jumping in and out of different scales and modes but I am not sure. By contrast, I sound like I am playing a scale- not very musical. Is he mixing up different scales? How would I know which patterns to play? I want to play like him but I am nowhere near doing so. Any tips would be much appreciated.

In YTbe, the title to this piece is "Fun Loop Chords and Use Those Ears!" Guthrie Trapp

Thanks!

If Christopher does not see this, I would post in his forum. I know he will have tutorials to put you on.

Personally, I stay in the key. I am not that good, never will be that good, but enjoy playing with others. So 1st question for me is "what key are we in" and I stay in that lane. But you sound more ambitious than me so whatever Christopher suggest will help with effort.

Thanks Mike. Chris is great- did not know he had his own forum. Hopefully he sees this. 

I usually do stay in the same key- especially for Rock and Blues but some tunes got beyond a single key. I have noticed that more advanced players are not relegated to box shapes. They are musical and able to play varous lines that might not be limited to scale shapes. 

If you have time, please look up the video on YTube and let me know your thoughts. He is really good. I want to improve and one day be able to play like he does.

How often do you improvise your own guitar solos, especially in blues? The subject of scales is so vast these days, without considering relative major and minors. My favourite currently is the exotic Byzantine for that Eastern flavour. 

There is a lot here in this lesson and as suspected you are more ambitious than I am which is great. 

What I picked up on is "focus on what you hear". I think I understand what he is saying. For instance if I am told we are going to be doing a 12 bar blues - A D E. Once we get going I will know the chords by ear and what notes might sound best for me to come in with. And I just stick to pentatonic btw. But it's timing and knowing what to play when, and being creative with those 5 notes (and you may not play all 5 of course) and this takes practice, and skill and patience. I am not that good at it. I like to throw in some notes cautiously, hit some chords, have a drink and relax. So what I am saying is that I not that creative. But a trick I learned from a local teacher - his name is Scott Medford and you can find him on Youtube - is to learn a bunch of licks. That way I am not trying to make something up on the fly. These will always work and I am having a good time.

I know you want to be more creative than that and I really applaude you. Good luck with it.

Thanks. I am just a casual player but I enjoy learning.

One of my first riffs was a theme song in the 1984 ski movie- Hot Dog. When You Were Mine It's a great, simple tune. I also associated it to my other passion which is skiing. Thanks for the memory my friend!

I like this. Learning more licks is a great idea. Now that you say that, I do see those players doing their runs using varoius licks. What I have found is that it usually sounds good if I consciously emphasize what sounds right. Even if I hit clearly wrong notes, I can use them almost as contrast and quickly move on to the root note(s.)

You captured the essence of my question. Going even further, I was referring to getting out of the scale boxes. I know how notes are all over the fretboard. I am in a course now so I can learn all the notes in context of any given key. There are only 24 chords- 12 major and 12 minor (circle of 5th's.) He has us learning one group (4 notes) per week. We will see how it goes. 

My goal is to be able to solo over any chord progression and sound musical- not like I am practicing a scale. I sound ok- especially blues. I can play fast (as in 160 bom) accurately, up and down the neck, skip positions- back and forth and literlaly blindfolded. I sometimes play in the dark to challenge myself and develop my ear. The problem is, if you come back 10 minutes later- I am basically repeating what I did in the previous 10 minutes! Also, if chords are mixed in that are not in that key, likely not blues, my weaknesses start to really shine.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge- much appreciated.

Rock on!

Improvising & playing lead lines has 3 steps.

1 - Know the key signature.  This means to know what scale to use for the chord progression.
2 - Target chord tones.  This means to rhythmically emphasize the chords as they occur with your lines.
3 - Play melodic phrases.

So, it sounds like you are at step 1.  Now it's time to think about how to use the scales to target chord tones & build a vocabulary of melodic phrases to use when you solo.

It's important to realize that knowing or playing scales is just the first step.  It's only a pre-requisite to soloing.  Now you need to use those scales to build a repertoire of licks.  Of things to play when you solo.

Playing scales is a great warmup skill that will help you learn the basic physical techniques required to start learning licks.  But playing licks & improvising requires taking those scale playing skills & combining it with learning a vocabulary. You have to learn set licks & patterns, then repeat them until they are automated, completely second nature. Then you can focus on counting after you've automated some licks.

You need to learn some licks & get them to the piont at which you can think, "Play lick 1!" & your hours of repetitious practice & muscle memory takes care of the motions while you are consciously focusing on counting. Then, you think, "Play lick 2" & so on.

The point is that the each lick is a self-contained unit, worked out completely or mostly in advance. And you don't have to think about each motion required. Your conscious focus is free to count or think in big picture units, like counting or thinking of which lick to do next & when to start it. You can start to mix & match your building block licks.

So when you listen to the guy in the YT vid (great player!), you'll see him doing this.  He clearly states the chord prog (Dm / Am / Gm / Gm).  Then he proceeds to play very simple chord tones in a similar rhythmic phrase.

He plays the same rhythmic grouping (creating a repeated motif) of a half-note, then 2 quarter notes using descending triads right on the chords that are happening.

a-f-d (5-3-1 of the D min chord when it happens)

g-e-c (7-5-3 of the A min cord when it happens)

f-d-b-flat (7-5-3 of the G min chord when it happens)

It immediately sounds like a musical phrase because he's playing a specific pattern:  3 descending chord tones in a repeated phrasing group over each chord.  The he continues to build on that simple idea with more ideas that are notes from the D minor scale, but not just running the scale in an even rhythm.  He's playing notes that target the chords as they occur & doing it in little rhythmic motifs, or statements.

With that in mind, have a look at these tutorials on building some licks that are the basis of learning a vocabulary.

Bread & Butter Blues 1

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=1614

Major Notes In Minor Pentatonic

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=217

And have a look at how I put it all together in my collection of tutorials on improvisation.  If you haven't seen these yet, then I strongly encourage you to at least watch through the first three tutorials.  They are very simple, but will give you an very basic understanding of the concept and help you to get started playing with melodic lines that target chord tones.  Then you'll be ready for the last two that get more complex and involved.

https://www.guitartricks.com/collection/learning-to-improvise

Then you'll be on your way to having a vocbulary of licks to play! Hope that helps!

Thanks Chris. Another great response! Everything you said makes a lot of sense. I am definitely in phase 1...but I can see phase 2. 

Funny you mention targeting chord tones. I just started a fretboard memorization 12 week course. I spent 2 hours last night drilling just the note C (from C Maj triad) over the whole fretboard to a single note backing track. He also included the locations for E and G. I will work on those next. I was finally able to understand, see and slowly strat to play chord tones. By identifying each note I will be able to play arpegios and understand how the chords and lines come together melodically. It took me out of my pentatonic boxes. I also practiced the Guthrie tune and got the first part down. I understand what you mean by map out some licks that mostly fit in the scale. They do mostly fit in the boxes however I am now beginning to see that the boxes are just phase 1. They are simply reference markers on a meandoring journey all over the fretboard. I have concluded that learning the name and location of every not on the fretboard is an essential learning. I will drill one major and one minor chord per week. The idea is to have it all down in 12 weeks- not just memorized, but internalized in context and via some kind of muscle memory. After an hour, I was suprised how comfortable I was getting jumping around the fretboard. There are some clear patterns as well that are repeatable like down one string up two, then down one string and I think it was up three to get you the same note. Also, going up 12 frets on any string, not just open E gets you back to the root note. All great stuff.

You also answered my question well by highlighting how it is about playing the notes in the chords. I assume most of those notes will be in the scale.

***The part you mentioned about him playing the 5 3 1 and 7 5 3 of the respective chords, when they happen is still not 100% clear to me. I thnk you are saying he is playing descending chord tones- but is based off degrees of the chord relative to the scale- which scale, D min or A min? I also thought triads were 1 3 5 or 1 b3 5. Never heard of a 7 5 3 triad. Are all those notes in the scale or should I only be concerned about the chords? I know how to figure out the scales with W and H steps. I know that progressions like I, IV, V are based on the scale and Chords are structured using the same degrees of the scale, using R, 3rd, 5th for major chords- flat 3rd for minor chords. 7 is diminished. I am close to understanding this but not quite there yet.  To your point, I will watch the other lessons you suggested B&B Blues 1, etc. Hopefully that will fill in some of the obvious gaps in my learning.*** 

Thanks again- I am ready to move on to step #2!

You're welcome for the reply.  It's important to map the fretboard in order to know the location of the musical alphabet & then scale degrees & chord tones.  But that will gradually happen over the course of time if you just keep working on it. 

And one thing that can help you really concretize those notes & degrees is to learn specific licks; musical phrases to play.

And this is really what you need to start doing to get where you want to go.  I have an entire collection of tutorials on building a vocabulary of licks.  I can't stress this enough:  learn licks.  Learn little musical musical phrases that you can use to play as music in real time over a backing track.  You can alter them, adjust them, move them up and down in repeating octaves, etc.

https://www.guitartricks.com/collection/Bread-and-Butter-Butter-Blues-Licks

You aksed about the playing the 5 3 1 and 7 5 3 of the respective chords.  Yes, he's literally just playing the chord tones.  Those numbers are the chord tones.  Now all those notes are also all part of the D minor scale.  But he's looking at it as both, because all the notes from all those chords are all in the D minor scale.

I think you really need to look at my improvisation course.  I explain all of this in depth & detail.

https://www.guitartricks.com/collection/learning-to-improvise

Also, when you harmonize a scale you get a chord on every note of the scale using only notes from that scale.  So you can refer to the notes of the chord as the chord tones of that individual chord, or as scale degrees from that scale.  So you might be getting confused about the fact that you can look at or refer to it in 2 different ways.  But it's all integrated.  It's all part of the same system, just referred to in 2 mutually reinforcing ways.

With that in mind you might also enjoy my tutorials on harmonizing the major & minor scales.

Major Scale Hamony

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial/2387/next-lesson

Minor Scale Harmony

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial/2393/next-lesson

Hope that helps!

Thanks. I now realize 5 3 1 is still root 3rd 5th just in a decending order, as you originally stated. Interesting he is playing 7 5 3 but I guess as long as it sounds good it's all fair game.

Yes to learning more LICKS- 100%.

Should I start with the Bread and Butter or the improvisation course first?

Also, is there a way to organize or mark these threads as  favorites so that I don't lose easy access to all this valuable reference information? It might take me reading a few times to fully digest it.

Also I your mentioned never having heard of a 7 5 3 triad.  When you build chords you can use 1-3-5-7-9-11-13.  1-3-5 is the basic major or minor triad.  Going to 7 & beyond is an extended harmony chord.  You don't have to use them all, but they are there if you want to use them.  That's how you get dominant 7th chords: 1-3-5-7. And dominant 9th: 1-3-5-7-9.  All chords are built from scale degrees.

Also, you asked "Are all those notes in the scale or should I only be concerned about the chords?"

The answer is both!  You should look at the notes of scale being used to build chords.  That's literally what a key signature is:  a system of chords built on every note of a scale using only notes from that scale.  Check out my tutorials on harmonizing major & minor scales!

You said, "Interesting he is playing 7 5 3 but I guess as long as it sounds good it's all fair game."

Yes, the sound is primary.  But the reason it sounds good is because they are notes from the D minor scale AND they are the chord tones from that chord that is happening right then.

You might want to start with the Bread and Butter licks first.  That way you will start getting some licks under you fingers.  You will have something to do that sounds musical and something to play when you start improvising.

The improvisation collection has a lot of conceptual content, explaining the hows & whys of the theory.  There are a ton of practical examples so you can apply the theory.  But it's concept heavy.  So, learning the licks will get you focused on playing music.  

I don't know of any way to organize or mark forum threads as favorites in the GT system.  I usually save the URL as a bookmark in my browser.  Hope that helps!

Thanks again. I started the Blues lesson- loving those licks!

Just discovered in the FORUM section - top right, I can SEARCH FORUM. From there are the options to search by KEYWORD or by USERNAME. All my posts are there. I can ever sort by NEW POSTS. Basically everythign is automatically bookmarked.