Major7 defies my expectation


dlwalke
Full Access
Joined: 02/02/19
Posts: 240
dlwalke
Full Access
Joined: 02/02/19
Posts: 240
06/23/2020 6:38 pm

Just an observation really, but the dom7 chord is famous for having that rough coarse bluesy sound - due mostly, so I am told, to the fact that it contains what is widely regarded to be the most dissonant interval in all of music - the tritone. To my ear, the major 7th chord, by contrast, sounds beautiful and soft, with rounded corners. If it were a pillow or mattress, it would be the best pillow or mattress I ever had. It seems as if the dom7 and maj7 chords are on the opposite end of a spectrum. And yet, the major 7, in effect, trades in the dom7's extremely dissonant tritone for what is generally regarded as the second most dissonant interval in all of music, the minor 2nd (i.e., between the root and the 7th). So it surprises me that the dom7 and maj7 have such a different type of feel.

Just after I typed that, I looked more closely at the other intervals in these chords and can offer a provisional hypothesis. It seems that the maj7 chord has TWO of the most consonant interval - a perfect 5th (i.e., between the root and the p5th, and also betweern the 5th and the maj7th) whereas the dom7 only has one. I wonder if that could explain it.


# 1
Carl King
GuitarTricks Video Director
Joined: 10/08/07
Posts: 466
Carl King
GuitarTricks Video Director
Joined: 10/08/07
Posts: 466
06/23/2020 6:54 pm

Hey dlwalke,

This could be a deep topic to get into involving physics and the overtone series (and probably psychology), but I'll add some thoughts:

It also has to do with the context in which you hear these intervals.

For example, you might find (like I do) the Lydian mode to be a beautiful sound. But it also relies HEAVILY on that tritone interval. West Side Story, The Simpsons, E.T., Close Encounters, etc. Such beautiful otherworldly moments created with the tritone interval...

Also, that Major 7th note you mention is often heard at the TOP of the chord. So it's not so much of a clashing Minor 2nd interval, as it would be down an octave or two right next to the root. But that same interval could be totally clashing in another context.

A lot of it has to do with what we are expecting in the moment. If you have set up the expectation of hearing Dominant 7 chords and you play a Major 7 it will sound "wrong." You might find you can get pretty out-there as far as setting up expectations (making music out of dissonant intervals) and as long as you stick to those expectations or "rules" it can feel like they work together. Then if you add a consonant chord in the middle of it, that chord will sound wrong.

To go way outside, there is a popular book called 20th Century Harmony by Vincent Persichetti that sets up some vocabulary for creating music with dissonant intervals, but that's a matter of taste. VERY useful stuff if you get into film scoring.

This is a topic totally worth exploring, so that's great that you are interested in it. I love it when I see people asking these types of questions...

-Carl.


Carl King[br]GuitarTricks Video Director / Producer

# 2
Herman10
Registered User
Joined: 12/04/19
Posts: 318
Herman10
Registered User
Joined: 12/04/19
Posts: 318
06/23/2020 11:54 pm

A tritone is not the most dissonant sound there is; an augmented fourth ( or likewise a diminished fifth ) is the most dissonant and in the dark centuries it was seen as the Devil's interval and was absolutely forbidden by the church to use in music.

An augmented fourth would be like C to F# ( or Gb ).

Herman


# 3
Carl King
GuitarTricks Video Director
Joined: 10/08/07
Posts: 466
Carl King
GuitarTricks Video Director
Joined: 10/08/07
Posts: 466
06/24/2020 12:09 am
Originally Posted by: hsnoeckx

A tritone is not the most dissonant sound there is; an augmented fourth ( or likewise a diminished fifth ) is the most dissonant and in the dark centuries it was seen as the Devil's interval and was absolutely forbidden by the church to use in music.

An augmented fourth would be like C to F# ( or Gb ).

Herman

That isn't quite right, but here is a good page about Consonance and Dissonance:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consonance_and_dissonance

And one about Tritones / Augmented 4th / Diminished 5th:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone

-Carl.


Carl King[br]GuitarTricks Video Director / Producer

# 4
snojones
Full Access
Joined: 04/17/13
Posts: 694
snojones
Full Access
Joined: 04/17/13
Posts: 694
06/24/2020 12:28 am

so what I want to know is how come extended chords (like 9ths,11th and 13ths) sound so mellow when are basicaly including all the disonant scale degrees to the chord?


Captcha is a total pain in the........

# 5
Carl King
GuitarTricks Video Director
Joined: 10/08/07
Posts: 466
Carl King
GuitarTricks Video Director
Joined: 10/08/07
Posts: 466
06/24/2020 12:51 am
Originally Posted by: snojones

so what I want to know is how come extended chords (like 9ths,11th and 13ths) sound so mellow when are basicaly including all the disonant scale degrees to the chord?

Hey snojones, there are a bunch of factors:

1 - Dissonance is a relative term here. Combining different fundamental tones will create different levels of "beats" and interference / dissonance because of the frequency ratios. So, some intervals are more dissonant than others. All of the intervals in the equal temperament chromatic scale (except for octaves and unisons) are theoretically dissonant to some degree. A 4th is more dissonance than a 5th. Etc. So "dissonant" doesn't automatically equal "ugly" here.

2 - The context / expectations. If you're playing strictly "amen" church music, the 4th scale degree at the end of a phrase will sound striking and unresolved. Because that's what the expectation is, for it to move back to that very safe major third interval. However, in a jazz fusion piece, those notes will sound fine. You could stack a bunch of 4ths and it could be considered normal for that style. However, where you place that stack of 4ths might sound right or wrong. Playing a consonant chord at the wrong time can make it sound like a mistake.

3 - Melodic direction. You can easily add chromatic runs to a "nice sounding" melodic phrase as long as where you end the phrase / are landing is a "nice sounding" note. During that, you'd be hitting all of the "dissonant" notes in between, totally breaking the scale, and it still works. Also note, bending especially in blues can be VERY dissonant, but we like it. Because it's part of the vocabulary and is going somewhere... it's not just a random out of tune note.

4 - Your own tastes. I happen to love augmented triads and whole tone lines and diminished scales. It's something I associate with memories of movie scores and other music I grew up listening to. That doesn't change the fundmental dissonance of those elements, but it does make them totally acceptable to me in my musical vocabulary. So I won't automatically think "ew, that sounds bad." Much to the horror of some of my previous teachers. If you happened to grow up listening to a bunch of jazz and associate it with good things, those extended chords might sound great to you. That doesn't mean they aren't dissonant according to physics.

The concepts of Consonance and Dissonance aren't strict black & white laws for you to follow, even though they're based on physics. It's more like spice or flavor. Is a food too spicy for you? Maybe not for me.

The summary is, there's not a 1:1 link between the dissonance of equal temperament intervals and our enjoyment of them / how pleasant they sound. They kinda overlap in general, but a lot of it is context, associations, personal taste.

Make sense?

-Carl.


Carl King[br]GuitarTricks Video Director / Producer

# 6
dlwalke
Full Access
Joined: 02/02/19
Posts: 240
dlwalke
Full Access
Joined: 02/02/19
Posts: 240
06/24/2020 12:59 am
Originally Posted by: hsnoeckx

A tritone is not the most dissonant sound there is; an augmented fourth ( or likewise a diminished fifth ) is the most dissonant and in the dark centuries it was seen as the Devil's interval and was absolutely forbidden by the church to use in music.

An augmented fourth would be like C to F# ( or Gb ).

Herman

A [u]tri[/u]tone is an interval that spans 3 tones (6 semi-tones = 6 frets on a guitar). So as per your example, C to F#, you have 3 tones (C to D, D to E, E to F#). It's the same as an augmented 4th or diminished 5th. [there may or may not be some intricacies regarding different intonation/temperment systems and so forth, which I know next to nothing about, but for all intents and purposes....].

The story about the tritone being forbidden by the church is a great story. I'd love for it to be true, but it's at least debateable according to most articles I've looked at (e.g., this one).


# 7
Carl King
GuitarTricks Video Director
Joined: 10/08/07
Posts: 466
Carl King
GuitarTricks Video Director
Joined: 10/08/07
Posts: 466
06/24/2020 1:05 am

Speaking of Major 7th intervals:

Here's a great example of using them in a context that might sound pretty or ugly, depending...

In the song Retrovertigo by Mr. Bungle, the bridge is played on xylophone by parallel Major 7th intervals. It always sounded pretty to me, and I never gave it much thought. When I finally transcribed the parts, I was surprised at how awful that xylophone line sounds by itself, without the rest of the music. Those parallel major 7ths come off by themselves as clashing and wrong to me. Yet...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icgFjJjkP8s

That whole song (and the band in general) are impressive examples of sneaking in very dissonant notes that might twist your ear. Notice there's also some augmented stuff happening in this "beautiful" song (depending on your tastes of course).

Context. :)

-Carl.


Carl King[br]GuitarTricks Video Director / Producer

# 8
Herman10
Registered User
Joined: 12/04/19
Posts: 318
Herman10
Registered User
Joined: 12/04/19
Posts: 318
06/24/2020 7:37 am

The story about the tritone being forbidden by the church is a great story. I'd love for it to be true, but it's at least debateable according to most articles I've looked at

It was especially in Gregorian church music in Europe, don't think this kind of music ( which was sang a lot by monks in monestries ) existed in the states.

https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,,-1767,00.html


# 9
ChristopherSchlegel
Guitar Tricks Instructor
Joined: 08/09/05
Posts: 8,328
ChristopherSchlegel
Guitar Tricks Instructor
Joined: 08/09/05
Posts: 8,328
06/24/2020 12:06 pm
Originally Posted by: dlwalke

Just an observation really, but the dom7 chord is famous for having that rough coarse bluesy sound - due mostly, so I am told, to the fact that it contains what is widely regarded to be the most dissonant interval in all of music - the tritone.[/quote]

As Carl pointed out, the musical context is very important. It can make all the difference. In addition, the musical timbre can also make a great deal of difference in how consonant or dissonant some musical event sounds.

Compare a dom7 chord played with a modern high gain guitar tone with a piano playing a perfect authentic cadence moving from Vdom7 to I.

The former is going to sound pretty crazily dissonant no matter what while the later is going to sound very natural & commonplace.

Originally Posted by: dlwalkeAnd yet, the major 7, in effect, trades in the dom7's extremely dissonant tritone for what is generally regarded as the second most dissonant interval in all of music, the minor 2nd (i.e., between the root and the 7th). So it surprises me that the dom7 and maj7 have such a different type of feel.

That depends on how you voice it. Most maj7 voicings do not have a minor 2nd, they only have a major 7th.

This is one of the easiest ways to voice a major 7 chord. Cmaj7 with no minor 2nd.

c-e-g-b

|------------------------|[br]|--0--------------------|[br]|--0--------------------|[br]|--2--------------------|[br]|--3--------------------|[br]|------------------------|

Now let's change that to this Cmaj7 (no5th). In this case we drop the 5th, but add a second root note. This voicing does have a minor 2nd between the high C & B. But it's very lovely through a clean tone or on an acoustic guitar.

c-e-c-b

|------------------------|[br]|--0--------------------|[br]|--5--------------------|[br]|--2--------------------|[br]|--3--------------------|[br]|------------------------|

Now just play the minor 2nd interval by itself.

|------------------------|[br]|--0--------------------|[br]|--5--------------------|[br]|-----------------------|[br]|-----------------------|[br]|------------------------|

Yikes. Now try turning on some gain & playing either that interval or either Cmaj7.

Now let's try an inverted maj7. In this case we have a 3rd inversion because the major 7th scale degree is on the bottom. So we get a minor 9th interval from the b to the c.

b-e-g-c

|------------------------|[br]|--1--------------------|[br]|--0--------------------|[br]|--2--------------------|[br]|--2--------------------|[br]|------------------------|

Context is everything.

[quote=dlwalke]Just after I typed that, I looked more closely at the other intervals in these chords and can offer a provisional hypothesis. It seems that the maj7 chord has TWO of the most consonant interval - a perfect 5th (i.e., between the root and the p5th, and also betweern the 5th and the maj7th) whereas the dom7 only has one. I wonder if that could explain it.

Yes, it helps to consider all the intervals & voicings in any given chord. But it also helps to consider the musical context. What happens before & after the chord provides context. How do the voices move from one chord to the next? And timbre also plays a big role!

Fun topic!


Christopher Schlegel
Guitar Tricks Instructor

Christopher Schlegel Lesson Directory
# 10
ChristopherSchlegel
Guitar Tricks Instructor
Joined: 08/09/05
Posts: 8,328
ChristopherSchlegel
Guitar Tricks Instructor
Joined: 08/09/05
Posts: 8,328
06/24/2020 12:09 pm
Originally Posted by: snojones

so what I want to know is how come extended chords (like 9ths,11th and 13ths) sound so mellow when are basicaly including all the disonant scale degrees to the chord?

Many extended chords are simply reinforcing the natural overtone series already present in any musical tone. IOW, not dissonant per se, only a natural part of what already is present in the chord.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music)

And of course the context of the progression, voicing & timbre also makes a difference!


Christopher Schlegel
Guitar Tricks Instructor

Christopher Schlegel Lesson Directory
# 11
dlwalke
Full Access
Joined: 02/02/19
Posts: 240
dlwalke
Full Access
Joined: 02/02/19
Posts: 240
06/25/2020 9:45 pm

Wow. Thanks all! Those responses took me on quite a ride from which I learned a few things (hopefully, correct things). First off, and as a bit of an aside, that Mr. Bungle music was pretty interesting. I listened to a few of their songs. At first I thought I didn't really like it. Then I thought maybe I did. Then I decided I wasn't sure if I liked it or not. Now I feel like I simultaneously like and dislike their music. Anyway, I added the California album to my iTunes playlist so I can listen some more (always on the hunt for new music that I can get excited about) to see if it grows on or off me. But anyway...

As for the point of this thread, I see now, looking more closely and based on what you guys were saying, that my premise was incorrect concerning the maj7 chord. Indeed, for all (or most all) of the voicings I looked at, the root note does not appear above the maj7 note. When I tried to put it in with some sort of awkward fingering (to get a minor 2nd), it definitely detracted from what I perceive as the beautiful quality of that chord. BTW, I'm mostly playing these chords without any harmonic context.

I also realize now a critical error in my thinking. I guess I hadn't really thought about it but sort of unconsciously assumed that if you had a B and a C in a chord, you would have a minor 2nd interval. But obviously if they are ordered C to B, you would have a maj7 only and not a minor 2nd. This led me to try some experiments with what to me were interesting results. Basically, I played every possible sequence of a 3 note C chord (i.e., CEG, CGE, GCE, ECG, GCE, and GEC) alone, and also as a I chord in a simple blues pattern. They all pretty much worked (although with the particular F and G chords I was playing, one of the voicings was resolved to a bit more pleasantly, to my ear, than the others and a couple sounded a bit odd - although they still worked). Obviously, each of those different inversions and voicings is associated with a different set of intervals. So what I'm taking away from that is that the harmonic function of a chord (in the context of whatever other chords are being played) is absolutely dependent on the notes and relatively immune to alterations of the intervals between them, even though the intervals do have a pretty big impact on the sound. I assume that for other things I haven't gotten to, like voice leading in particular, playing with moving bass lines and such, the order of notes become much more important. Let me know if you think I've come away with the wrong conclusions.


# 12
Carl King
GuitarTricks Video Director
Joined: 10/08/07
Posts: 466
Carl King
GuitarTricks Video Director
Joined: 10/08/07
Posts: 466
06/25/2020 9:49 pm
Originally Posted by: dlwalke

First off, and as a bit of an aside, that Mr. Bungle music was pretty interesting. I listened to a few of their songs. At first I thought I didn't really like it. Then I thought maybe I did. Then I decided I wasn't sure if I liked it or not. Now I feel like I simultaneously like and dislike their music.

HAHAHA! You and me both. They were my favorite band for probably 20 years. Welcome to Mr. Bungle.

Just a quick reply (because I have to get back to work on editing GuitarTricks videos!) but I'll look at your response about intervals and reply more in-depth later.

I think you are asking all the right questions here and going in the right direction!

-Carl.


Carl King[br]GuitarTricks Video Director / Producer

# 13
ChristopherSchlegel
Guitar Tricks Instructor
Joined: 08/09/05
Posts: 8,328
ChristopherSchlegel
Guitar Tricks Instructor
Joined: 08/09/05
Posts: 8,328
06/26/2020 4:12 pm
Originally Posted by: dlwalkeAs for the point of this thread, I see now, looking more closely and based on what you guys were saying, that my premise was incorrect concerning the maj7 chord.[/quote]

Glad the replies helped!

Originally Posted by: dlwalkeThis led me to try some experiments with what to me were interesting results. Basically, I played every possible sequence of a 3 note C chord (i.e., CEG, CGE, GCE, ECG, GCE, and GEC) alone, and also as a I chord in a simple blues pattern.[/quote]

Inversions! :) This is a big step in developing as a musician. As beginner guitarists we all start with the basic struggles of just getting the mecahnics right in order to play a chord in any way we can.

But once those basic mechanics are solved then we can start to make our playing more musical by exploring the variety of chord voicings! This collection of tutorials is aimed at exploring that territory

https://www.guitartricks.com/collection/triads-and-inversions

[quote=dlwalke]So what I'm taking away from that is that the harmonic function of a chord (in the context of whatever other chords are being played) is absolutely dependent on the notes and relatively immune to alterations of the intervals between them, even though the intervals do have a pretty big impact on the sound.

This is a great observation & mostly true: harmonic function is not dependent on voicing. But it's almost an understatement to say the voicings have a "pretty big impact"! In fact the voicings are the sound in its entirety. This is how & why the same set of chords can have completely different resulting sounds. And of course timbre.

[quote=dlwalke]I assume that for other things I haven't gotten to, like voice leading in particular, playing with moving bass lines and such, the order of notes become much more important. Let me know if you think I've come away with the wrong conclusions.

Voice leading is the engine of music. Sounds like you are gaining understanding!


Christopher Schlegel
Guitar Tricks Instructor

Christopher Schlegel Lesson Directory
# 14

Please register with a free account to post on the forum.