Have you??

That was a good analogy.

I'd say it's a bit different from that - you might or might not get better even in one sitting - but you don't necessarily stay the same - you don't have to play daily or too regularly either...sometimes not even touching the guitar for a week and then picking it up gives it such a freshness, and you have some crazy "unlimited" feeling where you stretch out a bit more instead of having played the same sh!t over and over for 30 days and just being too cluttered with it to really stretch out...that's the major downside of just practicing technique all day long and every day...is you just push yourself into a corner where you suck musically, you don't really go anywhere...

...go on a whim, try whatever strikes you at any moment - otherwise you're just another lame Yngwie, playing the same song 14,000 times and not really progressing one step///even though trying to play pretty freely and randomly can also set you into a repetitive rut...when that happens, don';t just sit there thinking of you to break it...do something else for a day or two, otherwise if you don't "progress" while still trying to every day, you wil remain a little "defeated", and giving yourself just a bit of time to relax, maybe a few days, maybe a week, then coming back, you'll have forgotten all about how you'd "plateaued"...

...analysis, analogy, these are all anal/reverse-mechanisms...don't stick your finger up your ass to forsee how your next session will come out ("setting goals")...prediction is the same as predetermined limitation...f@ck that...goals are alright for one thing - technique, but that is the same as having a goal of being another Yngwie or another whoever - only without goals can you actually achieve something...

Interesting, but when you skip a day you lose nerves or something in your hands. I do sometimes skip a day, like once every full moon. I don't think I could live without my guitar for a week personally.

Originally posted by Posporo
...analysis, analogy, these are all anal/reverse-mechanisms...don't stick your finger up your ass to forsee how your next session will come out ("setting goals")...prediction is the same as predetermined limitation...f@ck that...goals are alright for one thing - technique, but that is the same as having a goal of being another Yngwie or another whoever - only without goals can you actually achieve something...

Oh my god, I'm sorry to use such a word, but that's the most stupid bull**** I have ever seen on that board. Unless you want to play [I have no disrespect to any of the following music, I only think they are more linked to youth political thinking/ideas than music] alternative/punk/garage music throughout your life, and then become the school's janitor that plays the guitar at friend's parties, you need to set goals.
How do you get anywhere if you don't know where you are, and where you are going to get through?

By the way, I don't think I'm right and you're wrong. I'm teaching music for a living, it's what I have taught to dozens of students, and that's what I was taught by seasoned pros.
I only ear this kind of thing (no goals) in rehearsal places, not in actual places where bands play concerts...

Dude, if there's nothing wrong with the actual music... then why try to dis it.

I top 30npm with chromatic blitzes - I am Domagoj from the KNAC.com boards (and I was banned with that username here for making some statements that others found offensive, but I won't be saying anything that people might not want to hear about other subjects - I will just talk about guitar now)...I think I've hit 36npm very briefly while warping, and once or twice I might have toppped 40, but it's just top speed picking and maybe some variance with left hand, but no fancy staggered fingerwork at that speed or any real fast speed for me just yet...

about the perhaps idiotic sounding statement I made...well...why do you think analogy and analysis have the word anal in them? That's the root word there...analysis means "reverse-engineering" - studying sh!t to find out about the thing that moved its bowels - going inside an anus to learn about the person (which will never teach you about them in full), it's very simple, that's what those words are based on. Analogy is direct comparison, again in a reverse-engineering fashion, for the thing being "studied" already is there in all its fullness, the study is trying to learn fully about it, similar to analysis...but you don’t have to analyze anything if you are playing around and stumble upon things that sound intriguing, they are simply there and weren’t a moment ago, and you don’t have to debate or configure anything, it is just there and usable.

What I might have said instead is one might want to play around lots - I mean PLAY AROUND, not just mix and match others' licks, and when you find a cool lick, maybe practice it for technique, otherwise you will only be a parrot following others that had made some licks (or who play simple scales all day)...I hope I made myself clearer...think about it...the BEST players didn't just learn someone else's licks and play them faster...they stretched out and then it is a culmination of everything, the speed, the improvisation, etc, but most people that talk of improvisation don't really IMPROVISE, like true improvisers such as Charlie Christian, Django, Jimi and McLaughlin, etc...there are so few true innovators...simply because no-one wants to risk sucking ass for a while at the new thing even if they can already go real fast with scales and other things they are established with - this is why extremely close to all the top speed virtuosos will never get into some real hardcore improv, and never really access their highest level of musicality, for they have that pure essence as a secondary accompaniment to their speed, that's why the shredders for the most part suck balls, and can only do that same sh!t forever...but they can at any time stop and re-start with the improv thing, and be a total beginner again, but they have that speed in other areas anyhow, every time they come up in technique or anything with the true improv style of writing/soloing, etc, they can access that speed they already have and perhaps modify it for the new thing they stumbled upon...but these dudes that are titans at shredding won't let it go...they are stuck sucking balls and just flying around aimlessly...so they rot away...

The bit about goals not being the means to achieving anything - I was pointing at originality there.

"How do you get anywhere if you don't know where you are, and where you are going to get through?"

I don't mean that this is not going to do anything, I mean that this will put you into one solidified mould, that's what a goal is, trying to get a certain skill or sound down...perhaps in stages, for various things, one at a time, what can be wrong with that? I'm just pointing out that it is a pre-determined limitation if that is all you think about is your goal - or a series of them if you want to get good at various things. I never had goals. I heard Satriani a few times in 1998 (the first really fast playing I'd ever heard), got into guitar (I had one since 1991-1992, but never played it really ever except to pick off some melodies by ear, like Call of Ktulu and Holy Wars and other easy beginner stuff, then pretty much never touched it for years with the odd playing once in a blue moon). When I started listening to Satch, I never really tried to emulate him, while watching music tv stations, I started legato for speed with only left hand for simple 3-notes per string scales - even to Whitney Houston and any songs. I didn't play much after that for a bit, and even now I don't play that much at all compared to "serious" guitarists...sometimes a few days in a row...but I'm not hellbent of keeping up a rigorous routine. I'm not accomplished in all forms of guitar playing, not at all like that, I just play and I can cruise if I want to...but cruising is a means in itself - cruising is cruising for cruising's sake, you know? If you cruise, maybe warm up with some blitz sh!t, then go around and feel for some other stuff, you will benefit from whatever you might encounter from playing around, otherwise you're just cruising so you can say you have the ability to cruise. That's a good thing to have technical skill, but the greatest barrier to real soulful playing is if you get too far into speed first and can't let go even for a moment, again the not playing for a day or a week really helps you open up from this kind of thing.

I've heard your stuff, you rock, I must say, I'm not saying I can take you on in all kinds of things you play, hell even you call yourself an "ex-shredder" which tells me you must see the same thing I am talking about, with the "stagnation" of only playing fast for speed's sake.

As far as "influence" from certain players, I pretty much just listen to the scales they use, sometimes a definitive sound or maybe one or two little licks, I go only by ear, maybe the "awkward" changes and strange flamenco improv jumps I might try out, things like that, but I don't have any set "goals" in mind, I just play around, and I keep getting faster...so all I'm saying is that anything's possible with or without goals or strive and determination to "get there". I've "written" some classical guitar songs (jazz/flamenco style, I mean on the classical guitar I played and recorded them), but they are like jazz/flamenco freesytle, not writing at all, total improv, sounds a lot like the guitar trio and egberto, I must say, but I don't even know the chord I play or what transitions I am making, I just play pretty much totally random and then react to it and somewhat try to make it fit, to come back to the “base” key or whatever, like all the great jazz masters do, even an "off note" you can make the perfect transition if you "resolve" it well, and doing this, every aspect of it, on the spot, is the best way to develop the improv side. There's still the fact that this makes one sound a bit like those other guys, but I’m not trying to, I’m stretching a bit, the coming back into key thing just happens to be what those guys do, and I don’t like total free-form jazz, so I must live with the fact that I sound a little like those guys (okay lots at times), but I’m not really striving for that, I just go along and the next thing comes…and yes my soloing does seem repetivie, but I can only add to it with more and more things to use each style/technique less often and perhaps get a nice personal touch going, although I am already pleased with my tone (but not at all with my songs, sometimes a great sounding song, then one bad chord ruins it, but again I don’t even know what a chord will sound like I play it totally random ,the weirdest chord, and lots of times it works…I have a strange way of doing things I guess, but it seems to work for me, and I slowly progress…)

"I only ear this kind of thing (no goals) in rehearsal places, not in actual places where bands play concerts..."

That's understandable. Most pros are educated in music, with theory, knowing how to read notes, I don't have a clue about any of that - I know the basic modes names - phrygian, etc, but I can't even tell you which pattern is which mode - I am totally detached from all that - not on purpose, I have no desire to learn any of it - I go strictly by ear - I confounded by guitar teacher that I had very briefly 10 years ago (who is awesome by the way) and I would bring in tapes of metal bands and that stuff to pick off by ear with him, but I'd be getting it all 10 times faster than him, and he could do jazz improv stuff sounding like Metheny, but I had the much stronger ear - I don't even care about anythying else, and you osurely know that the ear is the most important thing - without it, you need to sit there and read all the notes, you can never just join in and play along with something in progress.

I might actually consider doing a whole recording or show (if I start playing live sometimes) with absolutely no pre-determined music at all - total improv of everything, a one-man guitar show like Egberto - I guarantee he writes all his intriguing melodies this way, all the top improvisers do this kind of thing...and I must admit the chances of a total fiasco from doing this kind of thing on the spur of the moment are outrageous, but hey, it's no big deal - you can never get good at it if you don't try it...

You're probably the best guitarist of all the tricksters here. I think we can learn from eacdh other...we're both virtuosos, you're more hardcore into technique and dynamic soloing (or you simply are better at it of the two of us, whether or not you feel you are that into it), I'm more into feeling out some melody or feel from scratch, and flamenco warp speed licks (but I'm not even started on the true bouncing around that the guitar trio do, I don't want to follow them too closely, I do my own thing a bit, and maybe find some of their things that are intriguing and go along). We might even want to write a song together, email one idea, the other guy does a solo or an example of how to change things up a bit (or provide a key/tempo change making it a suite or something), we might challenge each other to new heights...

...maybe you can give me a lesson or two as well ;)

hey Posporo, do you want to write my school essays for me?
anyway, seriously, i've been told that practice makes better, never perfect. I also think that setting vague goals is a good idea, but if you start saying, "ok by next friday i want to be able to play 25 npm" or anything like that is a bit ridiculous. i say set goals like, i want to be able to play _______ (insert song) by ______ (insert date) or i want to increase my speed by about 50%. stuff like that, but not narrowing it down to npm.

thats just what i think

I would have to agree with Josh.

Last night I suffered a horrible brain fart. I've been learning Jason Becker's "Air" off of the Purpetual Burn album. I'm about 2 weeks into learning it and have about a quarter of it memorized. (The other guitarist in my band is learning it with me for fun and learning purposes and we plan on recording it when finished and then send it to Jason Becker himself as tribute to one of the best guitarists ever).


The brain Fart came when I tried memorizing too much at one time and started forgetting the parts I already had memorized. Todays a new day and played it again just fine. I guess sometimes you just gotta take a break for your brain to become fresh. :-)

Important Lesson: Don't Bite off more than you can chew!

Man, I used to have to memorize two songs in a weekend, then rehearse them with a band, I will be doing it again in a few weeks. Learning songs on the fly is an important skill, as much as goal setting.
And while we're on that subject, the one who goes 30nps, prosporo I think(sp?), how did you get so fast without setting goals? Your faster that I am, and you've been playing alot longer than I, but I set goals. After about two years of playing (and a month and a half of actually trying to be able to solo) I hit ten notes per second, shredding chromatics and scales with a metronome, so I know how fast I am. I figured it out with a calculator, he he.
Anyway, I think thats pretty good for someones who's been playing as long as I have, and I wouldn't have gotten there without goalsetting, and thanks to my extra practice while playing with bands, I know how to apply it tastefully.
What I'm getting at, is goalsetting for speed is a good idea, and doesn't compromise your originality. One of your goals could be to learn how to apply speed tastefully, after all.
Anyway, Im saying that I really cant listen to players like Yngwie. They are talented, but all they do is shred. I prefer players who can go 20 or 30 nps, but only use it for 3 or four parts of the solo, like Steve Vai on For the Love of God, or Stevie Ray Vaughn in Little Wing.
If you learn to do that, your set. And your right when you say that tastless playing is something to avoid while working on technique. Sometimes I'll practice some speed techniques, a bit of site reading, and then improvise for a bit. That helps to apply speed tastefully.

Part of the reason why the song is taking me so long (I'm now halfway through it) Is because I'm in 2 different bands at the moment: Divine InterVention a Slayer tribute band, and Cydonia a progmetal band (Originals).

Oh, I can see how that would tie you up for song learnin time.

I agree with you guys that you can get hung up on technique and that it's better to play around and experiment. Most of my music has been partly improvised from mind and partly on experimentation and luck.
This said I don't think that theory is un-important; if nothing else it's a catalogue of ideas, a check list. When you've got one variety of mode/scale licked you can try another. I'd have got very bored of my instrument had I not devoted a lot of time to practicing different sounding arpeggios and scales. To start with I just follow fretboard diagrams and it's pretty mindless copying but when I've internalised it it shows up in my impros and is a real help.
As for goals, my goals aren't very clearly defined really, I just keep practicing for hours on end. I think the best policy is to set yourself tangible goals but keep in mind amazingly arrogant "i will rule the world" goals at the same time and not care if you currently only rule a small corner of your bedroom.. The better you feel about your playing the better you play, it's best not to beat yourself up about things. I used to get so stressed about it all thinking "yes but is it music?" and getting fed up that people wanted me to play something more melodic (ie.a catchy two-bar riff) but I find that mindnumbingly tedious to play.

I totally disagree with you, Posporo. How can you get anywhere without having goals? Doesn't everyone here have an idea of what they want to accomplish with the guitar? Your goals don't need to be written down in a notebook beside your bed, they can be vague ideas of where you want to improve, such as "I would like to be able to play more fluidly" or when you decide to learn tapping.

I can't understand why you need to inform us of how many notes you can play per second - does this make you an expert in teaching/learning methods? Are you trying to tell us that we can achieve a certain speed as guitarists by not setting goals and having ephermal notions of where our guitar playing is headed.

I wholeheartedly agree with lalimace here, that you'll never achieve anything significant musically without goals, and that having goals is what drove most successful musicians today to where they are now.

You may also want to check your etymology there.

Goals walk hand in hand with anyone successful. Atleast that what my planner "helpful hint of the week" says.

The helpful hint of the week gives much wisdom.