caged system

HI Mike I like your teaching Happy 2017!

I am concerned about all the hype placed on the caged system

I am basically a 3 finger player that being said I can play a E,A easily in this system

my little finget cannot reach the root like in D and C and G it will not work

Is the caged sytem that important ,if not what is a good way to work around this system

Your professional help wold be must appreciated

I have seen this question come up a number of times, and I am surprised that no-one has responded to it. I briefly addressed it another post, but I think that it is important enough to revisit.

First: The guitar is what I call a 'positional instrument'. What I mean by that is, like the harmonica, you learn to play something in, for instance, the key of 'C' and you don't have to learn new scales and chord fingerings to play the same thing in the other 12 keys. All you have to do is play the 'C' material in a different position on the guitar. If you move a 'C' chord up 1 fret, you are now playing 'C#', two frets and you are playing 'D', etc. It is possible to learn to manipulate 'positions' and never really understand why/what you are playing. This is one of the strengths of the guitar, but it is also a trap that can keep you from learning the instrument properly and keep you from being able to transpose, compose, and improvise with freedom and understanding.

Second: Becase these movable chord/scale patterns on the guitar are so important and convenient, there are dozens (even hundreds) of systems that have been developed to enable to player to see, understand, and use the pattern systems more effectively. The CAGED system is one of these organizing approaches. It has no intrinsic value except as a shortcut to seeing the patterns/positions on the guitar fretboard. There are a lot of alternatives to the CAGED approach. Some are better and some are worse. However, the CAGED system has become very popular and most guitar teaching systems reference it at some point. The popularity of the system does not mean it is the best system, or, even a good system. If it works for you, then use it. If it doesn't work for you, find an alternative that does.

Third: In my opinion, one of the problems with the CAGED system, as it is usually taught, is that for most guitarists, they can't acutally play the positions as the CAGED system shows them. As well, the positions are redundant. A couple of them are not really necessary. Even if you can finger the 'G' fomation over all 6 strings, the likelyhood that you will actually play that form in a musical context is almost nonexistent. Most players that I know divide the 'G' CAGED position into smaller sets of notes. Personally, I divide it into 4 sets of 3 note voicings. The CAGED system, as presented in many teaching applications, is not musical and needs a lot of alteration and thought before it can be used in a musical context.

Fourth: The entire conceptual basis for the CAGED system is misleading and can cause confusion and misinformation that is hard to fix. For example: if you play a CAGED 'E' on the 3rd fret, you are not playing an 'E' or anything related to an 'E'. You are playing a root inversion 'G' chord. The names for the fingerings C-A-G-E-D come from the chords that those fingerings make at the 1st fret. To move the 1st fret postion to the 10 fret and call it an 'E' fingering is simply wrong. You are playing a root inversion 'D' chord. This 'double-think' is compounded the more you use the CAGED system, and the confusion increases. Unless you have a good teacher who explains the nature of the CAGED approach and how it relates to what is really being played, you can cripple yourself.

Fifth: If you are going to learn the guitar neck, why not do it correctly from the start? First, learn the fingerboard completely. Never play a note that you cannot name. If you hold down a chord, name the chord (correctly) and the individual notes you are holding. Which note is the root, the 3rd, the 5th, etc. If you do this, it will be slow going at first, but you will be surprised how quickly it becomes 2nd nature to you, and, how quickly you learn to see the note patterns all over the fretboard. First, just look at the neck and locate all of the 'C' notes. Then learn to see the 'E' notes. Finally, be able to locate the 'G' notes. Now, you can see all of the 'C' triads over the entire neck. As I say, it is slow in the beginning, but if you continue to work at it, you don't need the CAGED system, chord books, scale charts, or any of the other stuff that so many musicians become addicted to.

Sixth: If you want to do this right, LEARN THE NECK OF THE GUITAR 'COLD'. Never put your fingers down without checking to be sure you know what you are playing. Here is a good introduction to 'learning the fretboard' from Guitar Player Magazine:

http://www.guitarplayer.com/lessons/1014/fretboard-memorization-three-steps-to-neck-knowledge--tab/54184

Learn what the 'harmonized scale' is, and how it relates to the creation of diatonic chords. If you don't understand what I just said, there are lessons here on GuitarTricks that teach that material. Here is a link to an excellent introduction the 'harmonizing the scale'.

http://guitar.ricmedia.com/harmonize-major-scale-triads-theory-lesson/

Always apply what you learn to more than one key - Ideally to 12 keys. Learn the 'circle of 5ths' (simply another system for seeing the repeating patterns in music). When you learn a new song, be able to play it in all keys moving around the 'circle of 5ths' (or the 'circle of 4ths if you go the other way - jazz muscians tend to move around in 4ths). Here is an introduction to 'the circle of 5ths'.

http://www.music-theory-for-musicians.com/circle-of-fifths.html

I find music the most interesting, fullfilling thing in my life. That does not mean it is always 'fun'. Sometimes it is very difficult and painful. But, those difficult times always lead to more creative freedom and greater musical expression.

I hope this was helpful.

Bill

BIll that is amazing a concise information ,I thank you so much I have learned a lot from the information and theory your presented

It is amazing that we pay monthly to a site like this and none of our esteemed guitar teachers take the time to adress our concerns are they sincere or it it for the money .I wonder what is their motivation ..that being said,

I really appreciate you taking the time to address my conscerns by the way what part of Canada are you from ? I live near London ,ON

Thanks again Happy 2017

Sometimes the instructors go on tour. Anders has been known to do that. Instructors also come an go.

Mike has been quite responsive to questions I've had in the past, so I suspect he is probably on tour.

It is frustrating though. It would be nice if GuitarTricks management made sure that the instructor forums are covered if the instructor happens to not be around.

CAGED for me on paper looks great, but it can be confusing. I became aware of CAGED after I understood the idea of moveable chord shapes outside of A and E based barre chords, so it didn't help me much in that regard :).

Like CanadaBill said, it would be crazy to try to barre a full G chord, or a D chord. It can be done, but the reality is you generally don't have to. In my playing, I find I use the D, G, B, and E strings (the more trebbly strings) when playing chords up and down the neck. When you do that, you can come up with ways that mere mortals like us can fret the chords. When doing that, just make sure you are only strumming the strings being fretted.

When you are finding these different chord voicings up and down the neck, you are finding chord inversions, just like CanadaBill said.

I learned guitar long ago as a "positional" instrument, and like CanadaBill says, it can be limiting looking at it that way. You learn some basic chord shapes, some basic chord theory, how the major scale works, and you have enough under your belt to be dangerous! :). The lure of it though is you can get up and running pretty quickly.

I am glad you found the information helpful. I certainly don't intend it to be a criticism of the instructional system here, or the instructor responses. I understand how time consuming it is to play professionally and try to teach.

I have noticed that, likely due to a heavy schedule, the instructors are not always able to answer student queries right away. I am sure there are a lot of students who have advanced skills and knowledge who can help when these time lags occur. That was my intention here. I am sure that the instructor will respond more appropriately when he is able.

One of the reasons that I am here is to take part in the larger musical communty that this site represents. I think that is as great a value as the instructional material.

I am in British Columbia on Vancouver Island.

Bill

Originally Posted by: IRISHLUK

...It is amazing that we pay monthly to a site like this and none of our esteemed guitar teachers take the time to adress our concerns are they sincere or it it for the money .I wonder what is their motivation...

That strikes me as overly harsh but maybe that's just me.

If one needs an answer to his/her question in a hurry I suggest doing a Forum search which will list answers to similar questions in chronological order. Some questions have been asked many times before and there is a wealth of information to be found by a search. In this case, the following thread showed up iin a "caged theory" search...it immediately followed this thread in the list of search returns:

https://www.guitartricks.com/forum/thread.php?f=10&t=45572

Originally Posted by: IRISHLUK

It is amazing that we pay monthly to a site like this and none of our esteemed guitar teachers take the time to adress our concerns are they sincere or it it for the money .I wonder what is their motivation

https://www.guitartricks.com/forum/thread.php?p=312162

My motivation is to teach any & all students what they want & need to know in order to play guitar. I did do a long post on CAGED (linked by John of MT, thanks!) here:

https://www.guitartricks.com/forum/thread.php?f=10&t=45572

But over the years I've found it much more efficient to simply teach the material, then provide links. Saves everyone time & confusion. Gets right to the purpose of the site: to teach guitar with video lessons.

This is another thing that motivates me & has been a long term goal of mine: to be able to answer any question a guitar student might have with a link to an existing tutorial that shows them how to solve their problem.

In fact, I spent most of last year scripting, filming & producing the 128 video lessons in those triad tutorials containing detailed break down explanations, backing track play alongs & notations.

Long story, short version. You don't have to use the CAGED system. I think it is a confusing & limited system. I think learning basic major & minor triad shapes is much easier, more efficient & more musical. I teach it in these tutorials.

https://www.guitartricks.com/instructor.php?input=155014#Triads_and_Inversions

Hope this helps! :)

Hey, sorry for the late reply, I've been really busy in the studio. Big thanks to all who jumped in and contributed to this thread:)!!

In my opinion, learning the CAGED system isn't necessary to learn the fretboard and become a better guitarist, as many of the posts in this thread will testify.

You can learn more about simple triad shapes by learning songs that actually use them! For example, check out the main guitar part to Brown Sugar or Free Ride:

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=2105

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=845

Hope this is helpful. Thanks for the compliment and Happy 2017 back at you!

Mike