[Sus]2 (VS 9)

I'm not sure what the obscurity is here between whether a chord is
Sus2 or if it's Sus9...

I mean it's all about counting up the steps from the root right?

If what I'm fingering is the second degree from the root then it's a sus2;
and if the second degree in the scale is an octave up from the root then it's a sus9...
right?

so

e|----E---
B|----D---
G|----A---
D|----D---
A|----A---
E|----x----

would be A/Dsus9

but if for some reason the chord was

A
E
D
then it would be a sus2
right?

so if what I'm observed up there is accurate...

then..
It's pretty much impossible to play a true "sus2" chord on guitar;
due to the tones being too close together on the strings: I fret the second degree and I've lost the root; and if I move the root lower I've turned my 2 into a 9 because I've shifted my scale down the register...

right?

Originally Posted by: Whuneso if what I'm observed up there is accurate...

then..
It's pretty much impossible to play a true "sus2" chord on guitar;
due to the tones being too close together on the strings: I fret the second degree and I've lost the root; and if I move the root lower I've turned my 2 into a 9 because I've shifted my scale down the register...

right?

lol: my bad; um, no:

that's what open position chords are for!
(among other things)

Csus2 for example:

I can easily fret

e|--3-----------> G (12th scale degree added for the win)
B|--3-----------> D (optional 9th
G|--O-----------> G (5th
D|--O-----------> D (2nd
A|--3------------> C (root)
E|--X--------------

Originally Posted by: WhuneI'm not sure what the obscurity is here between whether a chord is
Sus2 or if it's Sus9...

I mean it's all about counting up the steps from the root right?

It looks like you've already figured out the sus2 is possible on guitar. :)

But just for a little further clarity. You are correct that the 9th degree is intended to be used in the context of "higher than the octave of the root". But it is generally accepted that the 2nd & 9th scale degrees are interchangeable in some contexts regardless of octave position. Often a chord is labeled sus2 even if the 2nd is in a higher octave.

Originally Posted by: CSchlegel
But just for a little further clarity. You are correct that the 9th degree is intended to be used in the context of "higher than the octave of the root". But it is generally accepted that the 2nd & 9th scale degrees are interchangeable in some contexts regardless of octave position. Often a chord is labeled sus2 even if the 2nd is in a higher octave.

But, but...

it's a fundamentally different sound!

I get that you are merely relaying the established consensus;

but that's silly:

the pitch of the 9th degree is actually double in frequency of the 2nd.
It's the same reason I'll play the same chord an octave higher than I did previously: for the comparative effect!

So I was giddy when I realized the difference within the same given chord.

*sighs*

I shall take solace in the fact that I can still capitalize on the nuance I've discovered;
even if the status quo is all like "[yeah that's all actually considered the same thing.]"

But now that I rant about it I just realized that what I notated was actually a Sus9 according to my own definition
: /

Originally Posted by: WhuneBut, but...

it's a fundamentally different sound!

It is a different sound, but I wouldn't say fundamentally different. :D

Maybe I wasn't precise enough in my answer. I'll try again!

Consider that any & all chord names are shorthand conceptual tags. Any chord symbol is just that: a linguistic symbol that can refer to a wide class of concretes.

If I tell you, or a piece of sheet music reads, "Play an A major chord", the question remains: which specific voicing in which octave? That is what music notation is for; to precisely specify the notes.

Because an A major chord can be played in many different ways, octaves or voicings. Likewise for a sus2 chord. So, unless I provide a specific voicing, any combination of the notes A, B & E you can find on the guitar is acceptable for an Asus2.

Makes sense?

Something else to consider is that a given chord can be given different names depending on how you look at it. Check this thread out:

http://www.guitartricks.com/forum/showthread.php?p=289512&mode=linear&highlight=chord#post289512

Originally Posted by: CSchlegelIt is a different sound, but I wouldn't say fundamentally different. :D

Maybe I wasn't precise enough in my answer. I'll try again!

Consider that any & all chord names are shorthand conceptual tags. Any chord symbol is just that: a linguistic symbol that can refer to a wide class of concretes.

If I tell you, or a piece of sheet music reads, "Play an A major chord", the question remains: which specific voicing in which octave? That is what music notation is for; to precisely specify the notes.

Because an A major chord can be played in many different ways, octaves or voicings. Likewise for a sus2 chord. So, unless I provide a specific voicing, any combination of the notes A, B & E you can find on the guitar is acceptable for an Asus2.

Makes sense?

it makes sense; and it doesn't.

I mean isn't it all relative to the root of the chord?
To me.. If I say sus2; then the voicing has to conform to that formula of scale degrees - relative to the root - and if it doesn't then it isn't that formula.
I mean again: i get a very different effect when I play the same chord in a different octave.
I will specifically choose which voicing on my fretboard to use based on "do I want the chord I'm using to be higher in pitch than the one I'm coming from or lower."
It's like I'll play one; and be like "bleh" and find the same chord elsewhere; because it sounds different; even though it's technically the same;
but in that case it's still the same formula within the context of it's root;
but with Csus2 VS Csus9 we're talking about different notes relative to the root.
Same as if that D is lower in pitch to my C then it's some kind of D/C chord.

I missed this before!

Originally Posted by: Whuneit makes sense; and it doesn't.

I mean isn't it all relative to the root of the chord?[/quote]
Yes. The naming of a chord is related to the root & the distance of the other chord tones from that root.

My point was that a chord can be played in many different ways, inversions, options. One chord name or symbol can be applied in a wide number of ways.

Originally Posted by: Whune
To me.. If I say sus2; then the voicing has to conform to that formula of scale degrees - relative to the root - and if it doesn't then it isn't that formula.
[/quote]
Yes, and you could get very precise & say that the notes A-C#-G are not just an A7, but instead an A7 (no 5th). But most musicians just say A7 because those notes sound like an A7. They sound more like an A7 than any other name you could give it. And more to the point, the defining sound of a dominant 7th chord is the major 3rd & minor 7th.

To be sure, adding or avoiding the 5th does change the sound or flavor of the chord a little bit. But, it doesn't change the fundamental essence of the chord which is a dominant 7th chord. If we changed the C# to C, then we have a fundamental change! To a minor 7th sound. If we change the G to G#, again we have a fundamental change. To a major 7th.
[QUOTE=Whune]
I mean again: i get a very different effect when I play the same chord in a different octave.

Yes, you will get a different effect or timbre. But an Asus2 chord played in a low register is called an Asus2. And an Asus2 chord played in a high register is called an Asus2.

And if I play a low open A string with a B & E way up high on the fretboard, I'll get a different, interesting sound that is also called an Asus2 chord. :)

Because the B is one, two or three octaves higher, we could more precisely call it an Asus9. But maybe we should call it an Asus16? Or an Asus23? And what about the E? It's not really a 5th higher than the root anymore. How about Asus16 (w/19th)?

At some point this gets absurd. :)

And this is precisely what music notation is for: not just to name the chord, but to precisely indicate which notes in which octaves or locations to use.
[QUOTE=Whune]
Same as if that D is lower in pitch to my C then it's some kind of D/C chord.

That is a great point! But even there it's a matter of context. If it makes sense in the context of the music being played, then yes, it should be C5/D. But even in cases of inversions it is still acceptable to call it a Csus2. The music notation would help indicate the placement of the notes.

For what it's worth, there is already an established symbol notation that was used in Baroque & Classical times & music but not widely used today. It's called figured bass.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figured_bass

Hope that helps!