a scale = a specific series of intervals?


Whune
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Whune
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01/12/2013 11:13 pm
This is probably incredibly elementary;
but I think I've just had an aha moment:

a half-step is a minor 2nd
a whole-step is Major 2nd

a scale is a specific series of intervals

the Diatonic Major Scale is
Major 2nd
Major 2nd
minor 2nd
Major 2nd
Major 2nd
Major 2nd
minor 2nd

the diatonic minor Scale is
Major 2nd
minor 2nd
Major 2nd
Major 2nd
minor 2nd
Major 2nd
Major 2nd

Whereas:
Pentatonic minor Scale is:
minor 3rd
Major 2nd
Major 2nd
minor 3rd
Major 2nd

etc with all the other different sets of intervals
and that technically there can be as many different types of scales as there can be different series of intervals between any octave series of notes

a Diatonic scale is a series of 7 intervals - across 8 notes - bridging an octave

a Pentatonic scale is a series of 5 intervals - across 6 notes - bridging an octave

The chromatic scale is a series of 12 minor 2nds...

and that once one understands this... then one no longer refers to half-steps and whole steps; but can think exclusively in terms minor 2nds; major 2nds; and all the other larger intervals such as Fifths?



by the way: why is it called a "perfect" Fifth?
# 1
Slipin Lizard
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Slipin Lizard
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01/14/2013 4:38 am
Well, since no one has responded yet, I'll try to help you out a little. I just want to make it clear that I have a pretty limited understanding of music theory, and I'm not a huge fan of it anyways... its great when it makes sense to you, but it often degenerates into huge, technical discussions that really have nothing to do with playing the guitar better... so with that said, here goes:
Originally Posted by: WhuneThis is probably incredibly elementary;
but I think I've just had an aha moment:

a half-step is a minor 2nd
a whole-step is Major 2nd
[/QUOTE]
I think you're going to get confused quickly if you start looking at & describing scales counting in this way. From what I understand, you normally keep counting from the "tonic" or root note of the scale. So your major scale is Unison, Maj 2nd, Maj 3rd, Perfect 4th, Perfect 5th, Maj 6th, Maj 7th.

There's nothing wrong with thinking in terms of "whole steps" or "half steps" (or "tone" & "semi-tones" if you prefer), especially if it avoids confusion.
[QUOTE=Whune]
by the way: why is it called a "perfect" Fifth?

I believe its called a "perfect 5th" when it spans 7 semi-tones, as opposed to augmented or diminished that would add/subtract a semi-tone respectively.

I would STRONGLY recommend that you pick up this text book:

http://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Fretboard-Workbook-Understanding-ebook/dp/B002G1ZHNQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1358137920&sr=8-1&keywords=guitar+fretboard+workbook

Its super cheap, and will really help clarify the theory basics for you... not just in your head but also visually on your guitar as well. I've recommended it to other members who have really liked it. Its by far the best book on theory for guitarists I have ever come across. Hope this helps!
# 2
ChristopherSchlegel
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Joined: 08/09/05
Posts: 8,328
ChristopherSchlegel
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Posts: 8,328
01/15/2013 3:27 pm
Originally Posted by: Whunea half-step is a minor 2nd
a whole-step is Major 2nd[/quote]
While this is true, it is potentially a confusing way of identifying intervals. It is limiting in how you can grasp further knowledge about intervals, scales & chords.

The terms half-step & whole-step are more widely applicable because they are more generic. Whereas, the terms minor 2nd & major 2nd suggest a specific scale degree, instead of "any given" interval inside a scale formula.
Originally Posted by: Whune
the Diatonic Major Scale is
Major 2nd
Major 2nd
minor 2nd
Major 2nd
Major 2nd
Major 2nd
minor 2nd
[/quote]
Again, this is true. But is might be more confusing than clarifying. It's better to think of a scale formula in the more generic terms of half-step & whole-step. That way you get the standard major scale formula:

WS-WS-HS-WS-WS-WS-HS

This helps to better clarify the distances between the scale degrees, so you can get from the formula to this:

1st (root) WS 2nd WS major 3rd HS 4th WS 5th WS major 6th WS major 7th HS 8th (octave of root)

So, in this list you can see pretty quickly that the interval of a major 3rd is 2 whole steps; or a major 6th is 4 & 1/2 whole steps, etc.

On the other hand, using major & minor 2nds as your standard unit of measurement means that the distance of a major 3rd is:

major 2nd and major 2nd.

Or that a major 6th is:

major 2nd and major 2nd and minor 2nd and major 2nd and major 2nd.

This is all true. But using half-steps & whole-steps is a little more clarifying. Make sense? :)
[QUOTE=Whune]
... technically there can be as many different types of scales as there can be different series of intervals between any octave series of notes

Yes, absolutely! You've grasped a very important idea here: a scale is defined by its interval formula. The only thing I would say to improve your understanding is to use the terms whole-step & half-step, instead of the potentially confusing major & minor 2nd.
[QUOTE=Whune]
by the way: why is it called a "perfect" Fifth?

Most other intervals have variations: major or minor 3rd, etc. The 2nd, 4th & 5th do not. Also, historically, aside from the octave, the 5th is the most consonant sounding interval & closest to a perfect ratio (3:2). Finally, the inversion of the fifth is the perfect fourth (distance from root up to note versus distance of octave down to note).

See here for more details:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_fifth

Hope this helps!
Christopher Schlegel
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# 3
ChristopherSchlegel
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ChristopherSchlegel
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01/15/2013 3:31 pm
Slipin Lizard, thanks very much for helping out with a great answer & link to a handy book! :)
Originally Posted by: Slipin LizardI would STRONGLY recommend that you pick up this text book:

http://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Fretboard-Workbook-Understanding-ebook/dp/B002G1ZHNQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1358137920&sr=8-1&keywords=guitar+fretboard+workbook

Also, I cover all the basics of music theory in this tutorial:

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=495
Christopher Schlegel
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Christopher Schlegel Lesson Directory
# 4
Whune
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Whune
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01/18/2013 1:38 pm
hey guys, thanks.

lol Mr. Schlegel:
I know you keep referring me back to the tut and I DO intend to go through it;
but I'm pacing my self in regards to lessons.

I'm just asking questions as they occur to me whilst I go through other lessons; to make sure I'm understanding things correctly.

I appreciate your patience in that regard.
# 5
ChristopherSchlegel
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Joined: 08/09/05
Posts: 8,328
ChristopherSchlegel
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01/18/2013 3:48 pm
Originally Posted by: WhuneI know you keep referring me back to the tut and I DO intend to go through it;
but I'm pacing my self in regards to lessons.

Perfectly understandable. :) Asking questions as they occur is a great idea.
Christopher Schlegel
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Christopher Schlegel Lesson Directory
# 6
Whune
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Whune
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03/08/2013 2:13 am
yeah, so I just got that book this afternoon; and I'm seriously geeking-out over it.
I had no idea about those five root patterns; and half-way through the first exercise I was just flying through the diagrams laughing because I knew checking the answers would be a mere formality.
I just knew as I was scribbling them in that they were correct.
The teaching method is absolutely genius in it's simplicity.
It occurs to me that he's going to teach me how every single scale will arise from those 5 simple root-relationship patterns; I mean, duh: they're of the roots afterall; which dictates key
So the major built off of pattern 1 is gonna look like x; and the minor like y; and so forth
Those 5 simple patterns truly are the holy grail, the foundations of everything.
At least that's what I'm surmising from the leaps in logic I'm making.
lol: we shall see;
but yeah man: thanks much this was more than a missing link for me.
(apologies for the belated reply)



Originally Posted by: Slipin LizardWell, since no one has responded yet, I'll try to help you out a little. I just want to make it clear that I have a pretty limited understanding of music theory, and I'm not a huge fan of it anyways... its great when it makes sense to you, but it often degenerates into huge, technical discussions that really have nothing to do with playing the guitar better... so with that said, here goes:

I think you're going to get confused quickly if you start looking at & describing scales counting in this way. From what I understand, you normally keep counting from the "tonic" or root note of the scale. So your major scale is Unison, Maj 2nd, Maj 3rd, Perfect 4th, Perfect 5th, Maj 6th, Maj 7th.

There's nothing wrong with thinking in terms of "whole steps" or "half steps" (or "tone" & "semi-tones" if you prefer), especially if it avoids confusion.

I believe its called a "perfect 5th" when it spans 7 semi-tones, as opposed to augmented or diminished that would add/subtract a semi-tone respectively.

I would STRONGLY recommend that you pick up this text book:

http://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Fretboard-Workbook-Understanding-ebook/dp/B002G1ZHNQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1358137920&sr=8-1&keywords=guitar+fretboard+workbook

Its super cheap, and will really help clarify the theory basics for you... not just in your head but also visually on your guitar as well. I've recommended it to other members who have really liked it. Its by far the best book on theory for guitarists I have ever come across. Hope this helps!

# 7
Slipin Lizard
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Joined: 11/15/07
Posts: 711
Slipin Lizard
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Joined: 11/15/07
Posts: 711
03/08/2013 2:29 am
Hey, that's great Whune! I know what you mean about flying through the first parts, and "knowing" you've already got it right... it gets a bit tougher further on, but you're right, a lot of the time you can pretty much tell if you've messed up or not. Turns out that Guitar Center carries frettboard work-paper which I like, saves me trying to draw it out by hand, or constantly printing off from the computer.

Yep, those five patterns are gold! Glad to be of help!
# 8
Whune
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Joined: 10/16/09
Posts: 223
Whune
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Posts: 223
03/08/2013 11:42 am
Originally Posted by: Slipin LizardHey, that's great Whune! I know what you mean about flying through the first parts, and "knowing" you've already got it right... it gets a bit tougher further on, but you're right, a lot of the time you can pretty much tell if you've messed up or not. Turns out that Guitar Center carries frettboard work-paper which I like, saves me trying to draw it out by hand, or constantly printing off from the computer.

Yep, those five patterns are gold! Glad to be of help!



lol: i love/hate that place.
# 9

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