Confused with flat VI and VII

Hi guys i have just finished watching the videos on chapter 3 of the "blues course one" and i understand the concept behind the dominant VII chords but i cant understand the flat 6th and 7th chords that he put into the progressions. I was having a look at the minor scales in the key i was playing and it sort of made sense that the flat 6th and 7th had the 6th and 7th note of the scale in them but it wasnt always the route note of the chord so i dont really get how the chords relate to the scales im not saying that they sounded bad they didnt i just dont understand it. I love playing nice sounding stuff but i also want to have a full understanding of the method behind it as well. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Adam

Originally Posted by: adam_henthorne... i understand the concept behind the dominant VII chords but i cant understand the flat 6th and 7th chords that he put into the progressions.

I think you are confusing two separate concepts: the numbering of chords in a progression and the numbering of scale note degrees.

They are related, but distinctly separate things.

Music Theory uses standard numbers to designate scale degrees.

C major scale:

C (1st, root) - D (2nd) - E (major 3rd) - F (4th) - G (5th) - A (major 6th) - B (major 7th)

C minor scale:

C (1st, root) - D (2nd) - E-flat (minor 3rd) - F (4th) - G (5th) - A-flat (minor 6th) - B-flat (minor 7th)

We then use those numbers to build and identify chords.

C major chord:

C (1st, root) - E (major 3rd) - G (5th)

C minor chord:

C (1st, root) - E-flat (minor 3rd) - G (5th)

C7 chord:

C (1st, root) - E (major 3rd) - G (5th) - B-flat (minor 7th)

And so on.

However, when we designate chords in a progression music theory uses Roman Numerals. We use the scale degrees as the source of labelling the chord (by it's distance from the root of the home key; the scale we are using). For example a chord progression in C major:

C major (I) - D minor (ii) - G major (V)

A chord progression in C minor:

C minor (i) - B-flat (flat VII) - A-flat (flat VI) - G (V)

Make sense?

I have a complete, concise overview of Music Theory here:

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=495

This seems to be an ongoing question that I perhaps should have been more clear about in the lessons. Like Christopher said, whenever we are dealing with a chord progression, traditionally we use a Roman Numeral system that allows us to see the chords in a different way. This allows us to be able to change keys and to also "hear" how all the chords relate to one another. Here is how that concept pertains to those lessons:

12 Bar Blues: Minor Blues in D Minor w/ Flat 6 Chord
- this progression is in the key of D minor. Here are the notes of a D minor scale and their appropriate scale degrees.

I - D minor
II - Emi(b5) - or half diminished
bIII - F
IV - G minor
V - A minor
bVI - Bb
bVII - C7

If you look at this, you can than see how the 12 Bar Blues is constructed. Here is how our 12 Bar Blues in D minor pans out;

I - D minor
IV - G minor
V - A7 (we use this instead as it works better with the blues tonality)
bVI - Bb

12 Bar Blues: Minor Blues in E Minor w/ Flat 7
- This lesson works similarly. Here are the notes and chords in the key of E minor.

I - E minor
II - F#mi(b5) - or half diminished
bIII - G
IV - Ami
V - Bmi
bVI - C
bVII - D7

Here is how our 12 Bar Blues in E minor will pan out;

I - E minor
IV - A minor
V - B7 (we use this instead as it works better with the blues tonality)
bVII - D

As you can see, the bVII chord in this key is D7. In this lesson we use simply D major, but the same idea applies. This song is actually a similar idea used in a John Coltrane song entitled "Mr. PC." That is a very common blues/jazz standard that showcases a unique minor blues variation.

We are simply pulling those chords from the minor scale. It is important that you grasp how major and minor scales are constructed in order to grasp this idea. That knowledge will aid you in many, many things in your musical life. Feel free to keep asking if you need further clarification.

Thanks for the explanations :) i was getting confused with the roman numerals and numbers but i get that now then numbers are only used when describing a note or chord but the roman numerals re for describing the distance of notes and chords from the root note so if i were to play a blues chord progression in E minor where im playing I (Emin), IV (Amin) and V(Bmin or 7?) if i then wanted to place a bVI chord in that progression would that be a C? and if so why does it sound horrible when i play it minor and nice when played major? Also a question for douglas' when u wrote the notes of the d minor scale was that the notes or the chords which should be used when playing blues as i thought the notes were

D
E
F
G
A
A# / Bb
C

i can see that the root note for the chord is the same as the notes in the scale but how do you know which voicing for each chord? Im understanding the scale degrees a little better now which i thankyou for both of your replies though daunting at first (im not much of a theory guy!) really helped i just dont get how u know if its for example a minor, 7 or min(b5) (wich im assuming is an E minor chord where you take the 5 mote and make it flat?)

And one last thing! could you reccomend any books or dvd's if poss dvd's would be better i find i take it in easier when watching a dvd as opposed to reading which are good for my standard of music understanding im not great with theory i admit but i really am eager to learn this stuff as it will help in the future you guys are a great source but i dont want to be bugging you everytime i get stuck which im sure will be often!