key

i have read many books i have a few by adam kadman and a few other people. i have reand and printed tons of stuff from the net and i have even tried playing through a few books. but i still dont seem to get it.

key. i know every peice of music is in a certain key. if you listen to classical (i do some times) youd know that noctrune by chopin has been played in every key under the sun.but i still dont see how the key applies. i know that when you know the key you cam play the mode or scale that goes with that key or that accents the key (ie bm key play your scales and modes in em, the cricle of fifths????) kinda of thing. but how in the world does this help while playing a song like black dog or enter sandman? is it as long as you know the key and chord progression you can fake it?

every thing ive read said know this will make you a better. but i dont think they have ever really explained or im just dense and its not soaking in. any help would be great cause im lost right now.

if u want to play enter sandman etc u dont need to now any music theory just pick up some tab and go for it. if on the other hand u want to be able to play a song in a similar style to enter sandman etc learnin theory might be the path to it.

theory helps u make your own music. and there is more to keys than simply sayin these notes are allowed and these arnt. if u want any details just ask or possible use he search feature, you will come up with loads of stuff.

hope this helps

i think every guitar player knows atleast a few notes to enter sandman. im actually starting to get tired or reading tabs and trying to play everyone elses music. im not good enough to write/improv my own stuff yet. i dont have that good a command of scales and modes yet.

what i was asking is how is the key important inrelation to everything else. for instance what would the structure of the song be. what comes first the notes or the key?

i guess now that im thinking real hard about what i really what to know i REALLY dont know anything.

i guess the mods could delete this.

I want to point out something that many beginners and even advanced players misunderstand about music theory.

There is no music theory that "doesn't work" or somehow "contradicts" some music you can play. The entire point behind music theory is to explain how to think about how the elements of music (notes, chords, rhythms) all relate to one another. It is a means of mentally identifying and organizing information about music. Whatever music you want to think about.

Theory is the conceptual side of music (thinking) and and practice is the physical application of music (playing).

You can completely ignore learning the theory side. That doesn't make it go away. It simply means you are unaware of how to think about what you are doing when you play any music you've memorized the physical motions it requires to play. It is still possible at any point to theoretically analyze any music that can be played.

I personally think a basic unstanding of theory is a great value. In depth, vast theory study is not necessarily for everyone. I always suggest to students to at least understand the basic ideas behind what they are able to play.

On GT start looking here:
http://www.guitartricks.com/category.php?input=theory

On the web, R. Shackleferd posted a number of good sites here:
http://www.guitartricks.com/forum/showpost.php?p=197307&postcount=1

If you wind up having specific quesitions about theory once you start studying, just ask! Hope this helps.

In terms, theory isn't important if you don't want to emotionally express yourself.

Theory isn't about expressing yourself, it's about telling others what you utilized to express yourself.

I know some great guitar players that play with great emotion, but don't know a bit of theory. If you've got your ear, you can pull off the notes you want, sometimes even better than someone who'll tell you that you're playing E phrygian dominant, what degrees you hit, and what chords would emphasize it best.

Music Theory's great, but some people choose to follow their ear.

Originally Posted by: ZakJenkinsTheory isn't about expressing yourself, it's about telling others what you utilized to express yourself.[/quote]
That's almost it. You left out the first part though: identifying what you used in order to express yourself. Only after that can you "tell others" or communciate what you did.

Originally Posted by: ZakJenkinsI know some great guitar players that play with great emotion, but don't know a bit of theory. If you've got your ear, you can pull off the notes you want, sometimes even better than someone who'll tell you that you're playing E phrygian dominant, what degrees you hit, and what chords would emphasize it best.

It is true that any given player might be able to play better than someone with a better grasp of theory. But again, that doesn't make the theory go away or irrelevant. It simply means that the great player doesn't necessarily know how to conceptually identify what he is doing. In order to be a great player you have to know the physical motions and listen carefully. But, no, it is not absolutely necessary to know "what all those things are called" and how they relate to one another.
[QUOTE=ZakJenkins]
Music Theory's great, but some people choose to follow their ear.

But this is what I mean about the misunderstanding I was talking about earlier.

It is a false alternative to suggest that a musician can either "know theory" or else "use their ear", but not both at the same time. One doesn't make the other invalid or not work. One doesn't fight against the other. They are two pieces of the same puzzle.

In fact, without someone first understanding the theory behind how acoustics, music and musical instruments work in the first place, the person that "can play but doesn't understand the theory" wouldn't be able to do what they do at all.

Interesting thread, and good discussion so far.

To quote Joe Satriani (slightly paraphrased) "There are no rules, only rulers". Rulers don't tell you how long or short to make something. They just put a label on distance. Some people could say "I don't use rulers to measure distance, I just use my eyes". Most people would say that is silly, since it wouldn't make sense to deny yourself the powerful tool that rulers offer.

Now take that analogy and apply it to music. Music theory is a collection of "conventions" that produce specific results. Use this knowledge to your advantage or ignore it, it's up to you.