Feel like a chef with a hammer in my hand!!!

Hi all,

hope everyones good.........lately ive bin gripped with orchestral harmonies....specially when used with rock genres........its not that i want to write a symphony but atleast i want to add those cool string sounds to my compositions.......i want to know if there is any special theory involved in doing so......should i simply take a set of harmonizing notes and plug in a strings vst such as finale???

would it be fair to do so or should i sign up a professional :p although thats not what i want........i actually want to learn the trade.

what confuses me is that many pop/rock songs do have string sections playing but not a single band memeber happens to be a violin or a cello player...take for instance INCOMPLETE by the BACKSTREET Boys....its got all kinds of orchestral sounds playing in the background but neither of the memebers of the band plays orchestral instruments.....

what should i be doing to write a simple and valid strings part fo my song......hope im clear.......thank in advance......take care

I'm gonna keep this brief, because I don't claim to be an expert on orchestral music.

One thing to keep in mind, Some instruments are not tuned to Concert C.

Flutes,Horns, etc. are tuned to something else. Like... A Bb on a frugal horn is a C to us. So everything has to be transposed.

Most orchestral instruments aren't supposed to be playing chords, but rather notes, so that's how I would write a string piece.

If my song is in the key of A. I might have a I IV V I string interlude. (No matter how weird that may sound.) So I would take my chords, like A (A, C#, E) And have my instruments play those notes, respectively.

Another way is to write a melody on the lowest of your notes, and then turn those notes into chords by stacking thirds. (Think Figured Bassline.)

That's all I got to say.

Originally Posted by: shapertakh

what confuses me is that many pop/rock songs do have string sections playing but not a single band memeber happens to be a violin or a cello player...take for instance INCOMPLETE by the BACKSTREET Boys....its got all kinds of orchestral sounds playing in the background but neither of the memebers of the band plays orchestral instruments.....

That's becasue the backstreet boys don't ( or didn't, do they still exist?) write any of their music. In fact it is surprising but a lot of bands write very little of their music really. Their producers write most of it and they have a team of people helping them. The band might write some rather simple and crappy song and the producer takes it rewrites it, has them re-record it a bunch of times mixes it all up adds instruments and effects with a computer and thats what you hear on their album.

Thats why a lot of rock bands sound completely different when they go on tour, why they turn their gain and distortion way up (it makes it harder to **** up and harder to hear when they do) and why people get pissed off because they thought they were gonna hear what they heard on the album when in fact that would be impossible (short of playing over a backing track, which they probably couldn't do anyway).

I'm not ragging on anyone, thats just the way it is. Most music that sounds good is because of a really talented producer and not because of a talented band. Thats what a producers job is though to take a band and get them to turn out music he can use to make a great album.

I'm not sure to the extent of this in general and I know there are lots of bands that are very (at least one or two of their members anyway) in post production. But I also know there are bands who can barely play their instruments much less mix an album. Most bands probably fall somewhere in between.

I mean I know from interviews and stuff that even really talented bands like The Mars Volta's producers play a important role in writing (well Cedric gets help with vocals, Omar pretty exclusively writes all the music) but they (Omar) still play a big role in post production.

On the other hand Porcupine Tree doesn't even have a "producer" I don't think, Steve Wilson does everything with some help obviously.

Any way, as far as strings go I don't know much about orchestral relative tunings and such, but if your just using vst instruments then it shouldn't matter that much. When I write strings I generally write just one instrument and then like Zak said just add thirds and such on other instruments or sections or whatever. Just stack them. It's simple but it is probably what you are thinking, rock songs don't get real complex with that stuff.

There are programs and plug-ins out there that can get some pretty kickass sounding symphonic stuff going but unless your really gonna get into it I wouldn't bother. Good luck.

i was just kinof talking about this in another thread about 'catchy tunes'. there are many things in the classical, or 4-part hamorny aspect of music that can lend a helping hand in creating interesting chord tones out of generic chord progressions.

some cool ideas to think about would be pickardy 3rds, which would be taking a major chord and turning it into a minor, or vice versa. very cliche classical sound, and you can hear the 3rd tone moving very distinctively.

Neopolitan 6ths are also used, which in laments terms would just be a major flat II chord. so in C minor, it would be Db major. the '6th' term comes into play because they are usually implimented with the 3rd chord tone in the bass, so your lowest tone would actually be F. however, on guitar it hardly matters. the muddiness of the lower strings makes little distinction between the two; its more of a 4-part voicing thing.

secondary dominants are an awesome way to get new sounds out of old progressions. for instance, try a V7/V, which in C major would be a D7 chord moving to a G chord. there are more interesting ones you can mess with, like a vii/iii, which in C major would be D#b5 moving to E minor.

those are just a few examples, but i would highly suggest looking into some classical-esque theory. few guitarists are exposed to it, and i only was through theory classes. the possibilities for interesting melodies are quite vast, my friend. don't give up hope.


and on the BS boys issue, yea....they're not playing cellos or violas, that's for damn sure.

That's all very technical.. :) lol.. After reading a majority of the posts contents, I still don't think I could easily construct a string section to add ambience to a backing track.. :)

Something that I have misunderstood 3 times today now is this V7 thing.. I was thinking it's the fifth chord from the root played in the dominant 7 mode or whatever.. But from your explanation after that, it doesn't sound right at all now..

Originally Posted by: "quickfingers"secondary dominants are an awesome way to get new sounds out of old progressions. for instance, try a V7/V, which in C major would be a D7 chord moving to a G chord. there are more interesting ones you can mess with, like a vii/iii, which in C major would be D#b5 moving to E minor.

Well D7 is D dominant 7.. which would be the 2nd chord from the root.. (a whole step/tone).. not the fifth like I thought.. So if you're moving from D7 to G.. that's II7/V isn't it?..

You're right on the ball Light, as far as I can tell.

He seems to be getting his roman numerals messed up.

V7 is the dominant chord of a key, diatonically speaking. V is a roman numeral for 5, because it's built on the 5th degree of a scale. A V7/V is basically just (In C major) A G7(G,B,E,F) To a G, (G,B,E) which makes a small difference, depending on how it's used. No D's anywhere, unless you meant II7/V, which is a nice cadence.

Anyways, The rest of quickfinger's stuff's solid, but mostly irrelevant to pop music, sadly. Good for classical stuff though.

Originally Posted by: light487That's all very technical.. :) lol.. After reading a majority of the posts contents, I still don't think I could easily construct a string section to add ambience to a backing track.. :)
Something that I have misunderstood 3 times today now is this V7 thing.. I was thinking it's the fifth chord from the root played in the dominant 7 mode or whatever.. But from your explanation after that, it doesn't sound right at all now..



Well D7 is D dominant 7.. which would be the 2nd chord from the root.. (a whole step/tone).. not the fifth like I thought.. So if you're moving from D7 to G.. that's II7/V isn't it?..

I believe what quickfingers is trying to point out is the Secondary Dominant.
In C, G is dominant....In G, D is dominant.....So, D would become the secondary dominant.
Hope that helps.......

Originally Posted by: shapertakh...lately ive bin gripped with orchestral harmonies....specially when used with rock genres........its not that i want to write a symphony but at least i want to add those cool string sounds to my compositions.....i want to know if there is any special theory involved in doing so......should i simply take a set of harmonizing notes and plug in a strings vst such as finale???

what should i be doing to write a simple and valid strings part fo my song..

Many of the responses so far have been helpful and good advice. I just want to add a bit more with a specific example.

The trade or skill you are after here is called orchestration. Here is one way to achieve it. Take a chord progression from a guitar part:

E |-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
B |--2--|--3--|--3--|--3--|--2--|
G |--2--|--2--|--4--|--1--|--2--|
D |--2--|--4--|--4--|--2--|--2--|
A |--0--|--0--|--2--|-----|--0--|
E |-----|-----|-----|--0--|-----|
A D Bmin E7 A

Take the notes on each string of the guitar part and regard them as a melodic line or "voice" unto itself. They do not have to be only notes on one string, but this is the easiest way to understand the idea from a beginning perspective.

Assign each melodic line or "voice" to an orchestral instrument. For example, violin 1 gets all the notes on the B string:

Violin 1
E |-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
B |--2--|--3--|--3--|--3--|--2--|
G |-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
D |-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
A |-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
E |-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
A D Bmin E7 A

Violin 2 gets the notes on the G string:

Violin 2
E |-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
B |-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
G |--2--|--2--|--4--|--1--|--2--|
D |-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
A |-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
E |-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
A D Bmin E7 A

The Viola gets the notes on the G string:

Viola
E |-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
B |-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
G |-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
D |--2--|--4--|--4--|--2--|--2--|
A |-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
E |-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
A D Bmin E7 A

And finally the 'cello can have the "bass line", notes on the A and E strings:

'Cello
E |-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
B |-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
G |-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
D |-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
A |--0--|--0--|--2--|-----|--0--|
E |-----|-----|-----|--0--|-----|
A D Bmin E7 A

Instead of just playing the guitar part, you could have one of the violin group instruments play the vocal melody once in the song instead of the voice as a variation. Instead of the strings group you could use the woodwinds (flute, oboe, clarinet, bassoon) or brass (trumpet, french horn, trombone, tuba). Or mix and match them. Which is the very complex skill involved in learning how to properly and effectively use orchestral resources.

I just did a whole tutorial on this topic. I did a 4 part harmony of "God Save The Queen" (a.k.a. "My Country Tis of Thee") inspired by Brian May of Queen.
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=415

You can do these things with a MIDI sequencer and a VST (virtual instrument software). I use Garritan Personal Orchestra. The later versions of Finale have a scaled down version of GPO bundled. So that might be a good choice for you.

I taught myself how to orchesrate largely by reading and working through Walter Piston's wonderful book, "Orchestration". I also read Rimsky-Korsakov's "Principles of Orchestration" but I found it lacking in many respects for me personally. But it is a great work and linked at the bottom of this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestration

Finally, the availability of all the classical masters works in MIDI format makes studying orchestration a lot easier. Check here http://www.classicalarchives.com/

I learned the most about orchestration by studying the scores of Haydn, Mozart and of course, the master craftsman, Beethoven.

Originally Posted by: ZakJenkins

V7 is the dominant chord of a key, diatonically speaking. V is a roman numeral for 5, because it's built on the 5th degree of a scale. A V7/V is basically just (In C major) A G7(G,B,E,F) To a G, (G,B,E) which makes a small difference, depending on how it's used. No D's anywhere, unless you meant II7/V, which is a nice cadence.

i hate to be the bearer of bad news, but a secondary dominant is the idea that you are building a DOMINANT chord off the DOMINANT tone in whatever key you are in. so...in C major, you are right...the DOMINANT tone would be G. however, the DOMINANT tone of the DOMINANT (repetative, i know) would be D.

so light, you where actually very right in assuming that it would be D7. while you could simply call that a II7, the reason we don't call it that is becasue it makes no sense in a theoretical kind of way. in a major scale, we don't find a major II chord, so what we have to do is relate it somehow to another chord that makes sense, and in this case, its the V chord.

but i think others may be right on the relevance of this to pop music.

if i understood you correctly, though, you wanted to make interesting orchestral arrangements. there's nothing better than learning a bit of classical mumbo-jumbo, if you ask me :D