Which Mode and Why?

So I was listening to Benoit Nadeau's Jam Track located here: http://www.guitartricks.com/lesson.php?input=8577

He uses a I iii I iii V vii iii V vii iii progression. I wonder which mode you would select to play in and why. I feel drawn to the E Phrygian, and I think it's because of the mood set by the Em chord. In the second half, I'm compelled to switch to a G Ionian, because the F# in the Bm chord could effectively changes the key to either G or D. I could use some feedback in my thinking. Any thoughts? Thanks.

Regarding Benoit's Jam Track located here: http://www.guitartricks.com/lesson.php?input=8577

Originally Posted by: Kurgan1536He uses a I iii I iii V vii iii V vii iii progression.[/quote]
That assumes C is the root-tonic. However, you could (and should) look at other possible roots. For example, if you consider all the notes that are contained in all the chords:

C major: c-e-g
E minor: e-g-b
G major: g-b-d
B minor: b-d-f#

Then write them alphabetically (as if in a scale or mode):

c-d-e-f#-g-b-c

Then identify the intervals in between the notes:

c (WS) d (WS) e (WS) f# (HS) g (2WS) b (HS) c

You can discover that what you have here is C Lydian mode (without the "a" note as the major 6th). Makes sense?

Alternately, you can look at the notes comprising the chords and identify a key signature based on the presence of sharps/flats. Only one accidental present in that collection: f#. Therefore, what you have are chords that are in the key of G major (or E minor, the relative minor of G major).

So, look at the modes of G major:
G ionian
A dorian
B phrygian
C lydian
D mixolydian
E aeolian
F# locrian

Conveniently enough :p we find that C lydian is one of the modes of the key of G major.
[QUOTE=Kurgan1536]I wonder which mode you would select to play in and why.

That depends upon what sound you intend to create. You could for example play in E Phrygian over the C major, E minor and G major chords. This is a good way of looking at the chords, too. Mostly because, then you have a tonic-dominant happening: C(I)-G(V). Then switch to something else when the B minor chord happens, perhaps B aeolian, or any mode that contains the note of a B minor chord (b-d-f#). For example, G major as noted above.

You could also just play right through the B minor chord staying in E phygian if that is the sound you want to create. But notice that E phyrgian has an "f" as it's second note and this will clash with the "f-sharp" of the B minor chord. But if you desire that dissonance, then of course, include it (the f-sharp appearance is actually rather brief).

The point here is to have a system for dealing with identifying, understanding and applying the ideas so you can achieve your intended result.

Or in other words, "Yeah, I think you are on the right track." :) Hope this helps.

Awesome reply Christopher!

Really can't add anything to this.

Originally Posted by: BenoitAwesome reply Christopher!

Really can't add anything to this.

When was adding to Schlegel's posts possible? :confused:

I agree, Great Post C.......Easy to understand and I learned something valuable from it.
So, if E Phrygian was the main focus through most of the progression, then changing to B Phrygian over the Bm would also work well because it shares 6 of the 7 notes with E and only changes the F to F#. Everything else remains in key and the slight shift to F# could also be incorporated into a "Blue Note"
if desired.
Great Lesson, Thank you C.
Now, if I could only get your input to the "Confirmation Thread" question.

Thank you so much, Christopher. I understand what you mean about using the modes in the key of G, and I should have thought of that when looking at the Bm chord. The key signature threw me :p I'll try using the E aeolian and see what I think of the F#

My biggest issue at this point is recognizing the notes of the chords being played while soloing. I was running through another lesson (Nick Marchant's Spanish Style - http://guitartricks.com/lesson.php?input=9939&s_id=212 ) and he talks about using strong notes to rest on. So far, I've mainly just been noodling, and need to come up with more substance in my solos.

Oh man, I thought you had to stay in key to use modes, for instance the progression above thats in Gmaj. I thought you had to use the relative modes to the major, and play over the chord happening.

e.g.
C-lydian over C-maj
E-Aeolian over E-minor
G-Ionian over G-maj
and then you would have to switch keys for B minor

So really, you can use any key/mode as long as it has the three notes of the chord present in the scale?

Originally Posted by: Kurgan1536Thank you so much, Christopher. I understand what you mean ... [/quote]
Welcome, of course. I am glad you understand! :)

Originally Posted by: Kurgan1536
My biggest issue at this point is recognizing the notes of the chords being played while soloing.[/quote]
That's the sort of thing that you have to really think hard about for a while. And then after you practice it and do it for a while it gradually becomes second nature. Even after you can do it well it's always a good idea to step back and reassess.

I can already play over any ii-V-I in a hundred different ways. But, I am always trying to think of one more new way to do it. Listening to better players is one way to do it. Just really thinking about all the possibilities is another. Sometimes I will just play inversions of a chord progression all the way up the neck on just 3 strings. That can sometimes help me to visualize all the possible chord tones. Then I can try to think of new licks and lines using various scales and modes to connect those patterns.

I really should get around to pulling together a couple of tutorials on this stuff, huh? :p
[QUOTE=Kurgan1536]
I was running through another lesson (Nick Marchant's Spanish Style - http://guitartricks.com/lesson.php?input=9939&s_id=212 ) and he talks about using strong notes to rest on.

Good stuff there! Yeah, he is right on it about using chord tones. It's also a good idea to use the idea of strong beats. Put the chord tones on the 1 and 3, or all the downbeats; put the passing tones (the notes of the scale in between the current chord tones) on the weak beats 2 and 4, or all the upbeats.
[QUOTE=Kurgan1536] So far, I've mainly just been noodling, and need to come up with more substance in my solos.

Noodling is not bad per se. It's a great way to try out new ideas; see what works and what doesn't. The trick is to accomplish something with your noodling. Make sure that you've learned or made up a new lick to use; a new "tool" for your bag. Or at the very least make sure you've learned one more thing not to do. Trying to find good licks can be like digging for gold: tons of dirt and rocks, very few precious nuggets. I typically find lots of things not to do when noodling. The trick is to only play the good licks and leave the others in the trash can of the woodshed. :D

In a general sense, substance in a solo is best achieved by playing a melody or a melodic idea, then embellishing it with scales and arpeggios, then return to the melodic idea.

I wish you success with it. Let us know how it goes.

Originally Posted by: TheSquidOh man, I thought you had to stay in key to use modes, for instance the progression above thats in Gmaj. I thought you had to use the relative modes to the major, and play over the chord happening.[/quote]
You don't have to, but it is by far the best place to start. I always suggest to players to indentify the key and understand what modes belong to that scale expressed by the key signature.
[QUOTE=TheSquid]So really, you can use any key/mode as long as it has the three notes of the chord present in the scale?

Sure, why not? But it definitely helps to have a system for doing that also. So, learn to know the key and apply the modes of that key/scale. Then branch out and try other options one at a time. If one sounds good to you, remember it for future use. If one sounds bad to you, remember to avoid that one!

And I want to raise another point here. Sometimes I hear players (and especially people that imagine themselves to be :rolleyes: ) talk about their disdain for, or disinterest in "the rules". And you know what? Fine, you know? Hey, you can play anything you want.

But, let's get a few things absolutely straight.

1. The western musical system of diatonic/chromatic notes is an organized, integrated system.
2. This system conforms to the laws of acoustics (a subdivision of physics) and the physiology of the human ear, thanks to people with enough genius to discover those laws.
3. The only reason guitars (and other musical instruments) even exist and function is that people build them to conform to this organized, integrated system that is music.

Therefore, we are not talking about "arbitrary social conventions" invented by some dead, European white guys that were trying to "oppress us" by making us follow their "boring rules of music".

We are talking about a science that identifies certain laws of nature and makes use of them in a very specific, highly organized manner. :)

Ultimately, you can play anything you want. But only by approaching it from the conceptual perspective will you be able to understand how it all works. And eventually, to be able to identify what you hear regardless of whether it is in key or out; a "proper", consonant mode or a completely dissonant one relative to the chords you are playing over.

It is valuable to have a systematic method for mentally organizing the sounds that are possible into recognizable categories for future reference.

Excellent post Schlegel! You have cleared up most of my issues. I do have one more question though.

In your example, you use E-Phrygian to cover the C Major, E minor, and G Major chords, which belong to the key of C-maj. With this being said, I thought over the chord being played, you should put emphesis on the root of the chord being played, and the other notes that make it unique. So when you say play E-Phrygian over those chords, would you use the scale the same, or would you use the modes of the new key you`re in?

For example:

C-Ionian over C-Major
E-Phrygian over E-minor
G-Mixolydian over G-Major

Is that what you meant by your example, or would your tonal focus always be E-Phrygian, since that was the only example that was given for the three chords?

And if you wanted to play it a different way, you could just stay in the key of G-major, so like my example before?

C-lydian over C-maj
E-Aeolian over E-minor
G-Ionian over G-maj
B-Phrygian over B-minor

If its true, then that clears up most of my confusion!

Thank for all your help!!

Originally Posted by: TheSquid With this being said, I thought over the chord being played, you should put emphesis on the root of the chord being played, and the other notes that make it unique.

Just to be picky, the root definitely works, but emphasis on it won't sound the best IMO. The 3rds would probably be up there with the best tones to get some mileage out of. Especially, major 3rds in minor pentatonic, surprisingly. (When the chords are right of course.) There's a lesson on this somewhere. Anyways... Just a thought. :rolleyes:

Thanks for the advice Weslaba, i`ll try it and see how it sounds. I like your July solo btw.

Thanks man.

Yeah, TheSquid.

I think you've got it. Basically, since the notes in the Progression, when arranged from C onwards, give you 1 sharp, the F#. The only (major)scale with 6 naturals and 1 sharp is Gmaj. G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G, following the wwhwwwh pattern. So, in Theory (which is exactly what we're talking about), you could play a G major scale and it would fit throughout the song, though it might get a little repetitive. Other scales would work, but they might have tones that don't fit the sound/style you're trying to achieve in your solo. If you want lots of dissonance, play whatever you want, play a C#maj, be my guest. Different intervals will give you different sounds. I think of it as constructing a scale with not only the notes in my major scale, but also with the notes of the chords.
The chords in the song contain the notes in the G major scale, and if you should decide to play something different than G major, like C major, you'll end up with a different scale, and a different sound. The notes in your lick would then contain G-A-B-C-D-E-F -F#-G, which would create a little dissonance, but you might want that. It all depends on genres, style and whatnot. You wanna keep it happy, then keep it in Ionian, or go darker, play some Dorian. Knock yourself out.

Those are my thoughts.

Originally Posted by: TheSquidExcellent post Schlegel! You have cleared up most of my issues. I do have one more question though.[/quote]
Good deal. Conceptual clarity is what are after. :)

Originally Posted by: TheSquidSo when you say play E-Phrygian over those chords, would you use the scale the same, or would you use the modes of the new key you`re in?

For example:

C-Ionian over C-Major
E-Phrygian over E-minor
G-Mixolydian over G-Major
[/quote]
I mostly use any scale/mode in terms of chord tones: targeting or avoiding them depending upon the musical result I want. Sometimes I use a mode or scale simply as an ornamental device - I want THAT sound right there in the music. That's a matter of acquired experience; learning what sounds good where.

Originally Posted by: TheSquid
Is that what you meant by your example, or would your tonal focus always be E-Phrygian, since that was the only example that was given for the three chords?

My focus is on the chord tones, regardless of which mode. The other scale/mode notes are the passing tones that help with overall integration (being part of the overall chord progression or key) or ornamental "color". And more: if there aren't any chords (just a loose "riff jam" or whatever) then I imply them by using scales and modes in a way that suggests them or sounds them outright.
[QUOTE=TheSquid]
And if you wanted to play it a different way, you could just stay in the key of G-major, so like my example before?

C-lydian over C-maj
E-Aeolian over E-minor
G-Ionian over G-maj
B-Phrygian over B-minor

Yes. However, keep in mind that all those modes of G major contain the same notes: they in effect are the G major scale, just giving each note a chance to be "1st in line". So, you can use the C Lydian mode when the G major chord is happening. You just emphasize the notes g-b-d. Same with B Phrygian, etc.

If you are not modulating or changing keys to get "borrowed" modes, I think it's mostly valuable to think about modes in terms of fretboard positions instead of distinctly different sounds.
[QUOTE=TheSquid]Thank for all your help!!

Welcome.

Originally Posted by: CSchlegelI really should get around to pulling together a couple of tutorials on this stuff, huh? :p

Yes please! :)