Cycle of 4ths question
Ok I just finished my first week of Guitar Chords 101 at Berkley School of Music (The online Course) and I am a little confused on a couple of things. On the Circle of 4ths (I know this is also the circle of 5ths if you go clockwise.) I am trying to figure out why it goes C, F, Bb......why Bb and not B? I am sure there is an obvious reason but I have not been able to figure it out.
# 1
Originally Posted by: FingerSpasmOn the Circle of 4ths (I know this is also the circle of 5ths if you go clockwise.) I am trying to figure out why it goes C, F, Bb......why Bb and not B?
An interval of a 4th (fourth) is always a distance of 5 half steps. The distance from F up to B-flat is a 4th; the distance from F up to B is a tritone (or # 4th, or flat 5th).
# 2
See if this helps. Look at the circle as a clock. The Clock has 12 numbers and music has 12 note titles (choosing the proper enharmonic key in which they are written). 7 natural and 5 accidental titles to determine the proper sequence with the numbers on the clock.
C Major scale uses all 7 Natural notes in it's make up, so it's the strongest scale to start in clockwise position. # 12 is top of the clock, so Root C starts the sequence. The sequence of Natural notes in C Major (C-D-E-F-G-A-B) all have something in common, : All carry the title of Whole tone, except one. F gets a Half tone Title, while D-E-G-A-B, get Whole tone status. They also share Natural notes as their 4th interval (D=G, E=A, G=C, A=D, B=E)
Root C's 4th is also a natural note, C=F... F is the only Natural that has an accidental 4th interval. F=Bb. The Odd Duck. F is next to C, but has less in common with C's other neighbor, G. So, G gets position #1 clockwise (and F gets position number 11 counter clockwise). Next clockwise # 2 position closest to G is D. Next to D is A (# 3), Next to A is E (# 4) , Next to E is B (#5).
Going in sequence counter clockwise the Next position to F is Bb (number 10),
Next to Bb is Eb (number 9), Next to Eb is Ab (number 8), Next to Ab is Db(number 7).
This brings us to the number 6 position of the Clock and the bottom of the circle where clockwise and counter clockwise collide into an accident....... Both directions can title the key to maintain the sequence of their accidentals being understood and can even overlap to claim the # 5 or number 7 position.
Going counter clockwise from number 7 (Db position), next position to Db is Gb (number 6) and then counter clockwise Overtaking # 5 position (B) from Gb (number 6) would be re-titled Cb (number 5).
Going clockwise from # 5 position (B), next to B is F# (#6), then overtaking position number 7 (Db position) clockwise from F# (#6) would be re-titled C# (#7).
Notice that counting the positions away from key of C indicates the number of accidentals the next key in sequence contains; Clockwise, G = 1# to C# = 7#'s. Counter clockwise F = 1b to Cb = 7b's.
This theory pertains to the sequence of notes in which music is written.
Notice the difference when following the sequence of notes by trying to write the Major scale using D# and Eb (Enharmonic pitch, D#/Eb)
D#-E#-F##-G-A-B-C#. Using the sequence of notes doesn't work with the proper interval pattern.
The correct notes from D# would be; D#-F-G-G#-A#-C-D-D#, but written in this manner would be confusing and sporatic to the Stave.
Now Eb
Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-C-D-Eb; all notes follow sequence with the interval pattern and can be written with understanding.
C Major scale uses all 7 Natural notes in it's make up, so it's the strongest scale to start in clockwise position. # 12 is top of the clock, so Root C starts the sequence. The sequence of Natural notes in C Major (C-D-E-F-G-A-B) all have something in common, : All carry the title of Whole tone, except one. F gets a Half tone Title, while D-E-G-A-B, get Whole tone status. They also share Natural notes as their 4th interval (D=G, E=A, G=C, A=D, B=E)
Root C's 4th is also a natural note, C=F... F is the only Natural that has an accidental 4th interval. F=Bb. The Odd Duck. F is next to C, but has less in common with C's other neighbor, G. So, G gets position #1 clockwise (and F gets position number 11 counter clockwise). Next clockwise # 2 position closest to G is D. Next to D is A (# 3), Next to A is E (# 4) , Next to E is B (#5).
Going in sequence counter clockwise the Next position to F is Bb (number 10),
Next to Bb is Eb (number 9), Next to Eb is Ab (number 8), Next to Ab is Db(number 7).
This brings us to the number 6 position of the Clock and the bottom of the circle where clockwise and counter clockwise collide into an accident....... Both directions can title the key to maintain the sequence of their accidentals being understood and can even overlap to claim the # 5 or number 7 position.
Going counter clockwise from number 7 (Db position), next position to Db is Gb (number 6) and then counter clockwise Overtaking # 5 position (B) from Gb (number 6) would be re-titled Cb (number 5).
Going clockwise from # 5 position (B), next to B is F# (#6), then overtaking position number 7 (Db position) clockwise from F# (#6) would be re-titled C# (#7).
Notice that counting the positions away from key of C indicates the number of accidentals the next key in sequence contains; Clockwise, G = 1# to C# = 7#'s. Counter clockwise F = 1b to Cb = 7b's.
This theory pertains to the sequence of notes in which music is written.
Notice the difference when following the sequence of notes by trying to write the Major scale using D# and Eb (Enharmonic pitch, D#/Eb)
D#-E#-F##-G-A-B-C#. Using the sequence of notes doesn't work with the proper interval pattern.
The correct notes from D# would be; D#-F-G-G#-A#-C-D-D#, but written in this manner would be confusing and sporatic to the Stave.
Now Eb
Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-C-D-Eb; all notes follow sequence with the interval pattern and can be written with understanding.
# 3
Thanks guys. It seems to me from you explanations that I am just going to have to memorize the fact that it is what it is...... I know in some of my other studies. Complex math and electronics that there are certain facts that just have to be memorized and for the sake of sanity you just have to believe it and not question it and use it in that manor. Is this one of those cases? Or am I just being dense? Or maybe I am suffering from information overload at this point. :confused: I will go on with my lessons and keep coming back to this and see if I can make more sense of it down the road.
# 4
I figured it out. My problem was I was using the Chromatic Scale and not the Major Scale. Now I know that from C to F I use the Major Scale of C and then from F to Bb I use the Major Scale of F etc etc. And to figure out the Scale I use W-W-H-W-W-W-H.
The information you guys gave me was helpful. Thanks
The information you guys gave me was helpful. Thanks
# 5
Originally Posted by: FingerSpasmI figured it out. My problem was I was using the Chromatic Scale and not the Major Scale. Now I know that from C to F I use the Major Scale of C and then from F to Bb I use the Major Scale of F etc etc. And to figure out the Scale I use W-W-H-W-W-W-H.
The information you guys gave me was helpful. Thanks
Glad to see this post...............You figured it out, Congrats..........Off you go to greener pastures.
# 6
Originally Posted by: dvenetianGlad to see this post...............You figured it out, Congrats..........Off you go to greener pastures.
Thanks.... That had me pulling my hair out for a little over a day. Thanks again for such informative answers. Finally breaking down and learning theory makes me feel like a kid who has learned to ride his bike without the training wheels. Funny how dropping a big chunk of change on a college course and having deadlines for assignments will make you change the way you play guitar. :rolleyes:
# 7
