Theory/modes

Hey guys. I am new to the site and was wondering if someone could help me out with some questions on theory. I was looking over a site with lessons discussing modal theory. The lesson went something like this: Key of G

G Ionian
A Dorian
B Phrygian
C Lydian
D Mixolydian
E Aeolian
F# Locrian
If I want to play something in G major I can use the major(ionian) scale of
G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G and the chords that I could choose for the rhythm are G(I) Am(II) Bm(III) C(IV) D(V) Em(VI) and F#(VII).
This all sounds okay so far, right?

Then he goes on to say that if I wanted to play in a minor, I could go to the second mode, the A Dorian. He said that ALL the notes in the scale would remain the SAME but I would simply start AND end on the A note instead of the G. Is it really that simple?
Here is where he confused methough. Two pages later he breaks down the differences in the modes with a chart as follows.
IONIAN 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-1
DORIAN 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7-1
and he says to get the dorian just take the ionian and flat 3rd and 7th

So first he tells me the Dorian would be A-B-C-D-E-F#-G-A.
Then if I understood his chart, the Dorian would be G-A-A#-C-D-E-F-G
Can anyone straighten me out on this?
Also, would the available chords change in going to the Dorian?
This is my first post so hopefully someone can help. Thanks.

A Dorian mode would be A-B-C-D-E-F#-G
The number reference 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7 would refer to the interval changes made from the A Major scale.

The Dorian scale in the Key of G major starts with the note A and then you would play through the rest of the tones in the scale ie: A, B, C, D, E, F#, G, A. The Dorian mode also has a step pattern where the 3rd and 7th tones of the major scale (G in this case) are flattened so you get (1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7) or (T = Tone, S = Semi-Tone: T, S, T, T, T, S, T) so referring to the scale above if you follow the step pattern you'll find that it works out. The modes really get interesting when you throw some modal chord progressions behind them....but lets just start with the basic for now. Make sense?

j

although the notes in the following modes are all the same

G Ionian
A Dorian
B Phrygian
C Lydian
D Mixolydian
E Aeolian
F# Locrian

playin in each of them is not. it is not quite as simple as startin and ending on the root of the mode u want. normally the root third and fith (sometimes the seventh) are stressed when playin in each mode. you can do this by playin these notes a lot or simply ending on them after little runs. this is simplifyin stuff quite a bit but hopefully u see that all theses modes have the same notes but u play them differently.

Originally Posted by: jlachariteThe Dorian scale in the Key of G major starts with the note A and then you would play through the rest of the tones in the scale ie: A, B, C, D, E, F#, G, A. The Dorian mode also has a step pattern where the 3rd and 7th tones of the major scale (G in this case) are flattened so you get (1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7) or (T = Tone, S = Semi-Tone: T, S, T, T, T, S, T) so referring to the scale above if you follow the step pattern you'll find that it works out. The modes really get interesting when you throw some modal chord progressions behind them....but lets just start with the basic for now. Make sense?

j

I see many theories regarding modes and how they are interpreted.
I found the easiest way in understanding their role and how they achieve an identity is focused on the Tonic. The Major scale is a 7 tone Diatonic scale, of which the interval pattern has only one Tritone.
The Major scale (Ionian mode) Interval pattern never changes. If the intervals are altered in the slightest degree, It is no longer the Ionian mode. The Tonic may still be Major, depending on what's been altered.
When starting a scale from any other note in the Ionian mode, that new scale's 7 tones must match all the Ionian's notes to remain within it's Key Signature.
The G Major Scale= G-A-B-C-D-E-F# (1,2,3,4,5,6,7) aka; G Ionian mode.
For the 2nd note of G Ionian ("A") to fit, we need to look at the DNA of "A",
which is The A Major scale. = A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G# (1,2,3,4,5,6,7)......
Looks like the 3rd (C#) and 7th (G#) need to be flattened From A Major...
A-B-C-D-E-F#-G (1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7)
The 1st (or Root) Makes it an A scale, just altered, so it needs a different title for proper identity. Let's see, the 3rd had to be flattened so it's not even a Major Scale anymore. Can it be called the A minor scale?
No. That pattern reqiures a b6th as well to achieve the title.
This interval pattern carries the title Dorian, so this is the A Dorian, a minor scale. A Dorian's indentity stems from minor in tonality to function effectively in the Key Signature. In other words, for part or all of a progression to sound Dorian, the emphasis must pertain to the Dorian for the tonal center. If the progression resorts to the Ionian's sound, the Ionian will over power the Dorian for the tonal center.
The Dorian intervals are the same both forward and reverse from the Tonic.
When building progressions it's important to recognize the Key Tritone in the Key Signature. Many wonder why a V7 chord works so well in a I-IV-V7 progression. It's because the V7 chord contains the Tritone from the I chords key. In the key of G with G as the I chord, D7 is the V7. D7 = D-F#-A-C. The F# and C are the Tritone, leaning to G for resolve.

it's funny how the topics of modes can get complicated so fast, I guess at the end of the day if you can accept that the "Modes" are basically inversions of a major scale (the fundamental of all scale) than your good to go.

Each mode has a particular step pattern which will tield the following scales as follows:

Key of C

Ionian: C, D, E, F, G, A, B - (Major Chord)
Dorian: C, D, Eb, F, G, A, Bb - (Minor 7th Chord)
Phrygian: C, Db, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb - (Minor 7th #5 Chord)
Lydian: C, D, E, F#, G, A, B - (Major 7th b5 Chord)
Mixolydian: C, D, E, F, G, A, Bb - (Major 7th Chord)
Aeolian: C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb - (Minor 7th Chord)
Locrian: C, Db, Eb, Fb, Gb, Ab, Bb - (Minor 7th b5 Chord)

The chords beside the Modes are the ones that really bring out the color tones of each individual mode, thus creating mood and atmosphere. This effect can be enhanced by creating modal chord progression. The key to the modes is maintaining a static root note and altering the step pattern in relation to that root. If you play all the modes one after another moving up or down the neck over a basic 1-4-5 progression you won't hear much variation because you are most likely playing the Ionian mode just all over the neck which is what gets people confused. Try starting your solo with the Mixolydian mode/Box pattern starting on the note G instead of the Ionian and you will notice what I'm talking about.

There is much to digest here in these posts and many different ways to interpert each one. Hopefully this will help in some small way. Sorry for the longwinded post.

J

oh ya the modal chord progression I forgot, try this. You want to use a C Dorian scale to do a solo, and you want to really bring out the flavor of the Dorian mode. In which major scale is C the second note? Well that would be Bb Major (Bb, C, D, Eb, F, G, A ,Bb). Now to make a simple chord progression grab the 4 and 5 chords from this Bb scale. So now we Eb Major for the 4 chord and F Major for the 5 chord. Now throw the root note of the mode on the bottom of these chords to create the bass notes, so now we have C over EbMaj and C over FMaj (I would just play the major chords as triads with a C bass note) Record this progression and play the C Dorian mode over top as a solo, presto instant mood and endless soloing options. Hope this helps and dont forget to do this with all the modes as well. Happy soloing.

Alright. Hmmmmm. :confused: Lots of info here and so many different ideas. I'm gonna try to sum up all of this into what I think the point you are all getting at is, and using some of my own knowledge too. I am no pro at modes, so this is just a.....how do you say, hypothesis. Here we go...

To simplify things, lets say its in C major.
We have... C Ionian (major scale), D Dorian (minor scale), E Phrygian (minor scale), F Lydian (major scale), G Mixolydian (major scale), A Aeolian (minor scale), and B Locrian (diminished scale).
All of which are using the same notes as the Ionian mode. And from these, to my knowledge, you have chords that will work in the key, being... C Dm Em F G Am and Bdim (correct me if I'm wrong.)

Thats kinda simplified, but I have a question myself. Well, these revolve around the major scale (C major). So, my question is.. How do you change this to revolve around a minor scale? Say, A minor, just because its simple. Is this even possible? (I would hope and assume so)

as i said its not the notes you play its tjhe relevance u give them.

take the 1 4 5 progression, this progression has a very strong feel. try it in g ionion for instance. (gmaj, cmaj, dmaj)

1 4 5 progression is when u take the first fourth and fith note in the scale and build chords on them buy addin thirds. ask me if u dont understand this.

now if u play a 1 4 5 in c ionion. thats cmaj fmaj gmaj. u should here the progression 'likes' comin back to the cmaj chord.

now if u where to do 1 4 5 in A aolion. you would get Aminor dminor eminor.

this again has a strong feelin and rests on the aminor chord. but this time it sounds minor. experiment with the other modes.

Originally Posted by: Fret spider1 4 5 progression is when u take the first fourth and fith note in the scale and build chords on them buy addin thirds. ask me if u dont understand this.

By adding thirds and fifths you mean?

Anyways, I think It's becoming clearer.

over any major chord progression you can use any major mode....Ionian, Lydian and Mixolydian as long as you maintain the same bass note as your root, in this case "C", so you have C Ionian, C Lydian or C Mixolydian. For any minor chord progression, use any minor mode.....C Dorian, C Phrygian, C Aeolian and C Locrian. Some work better than others, but at this point it's trial and error and whatever sounds best to you.

Here is another example....Mixolydian sounds really good over a Dominant 7th chord. Apply to the the 4-5 chord progression in the key of C you get F7, G7. Now play C Mixolydian over top. To really bring out the Mixolydian feel alter the upper extensions of the chord to refelct the 4 and 5 chords of the F major scale, which are Bb maj and Cmaj. So now you end up with C/Bb maj. and C maj. again play the C Mixolydian. Thats it. For now :)

When referring to important factors such as "The Key of C", the progression must pertain from the Key in reference. The Dominant note in the Key of C Major is G and the sub-dominant note is F. If the tonality of a piece emphasizes to the dominant key, the sub-dominant note of the tonic has been sharpened (F to F#) which now becomes the lead tone in the dominant key (G). This sharpened 4th of the tonic would reference to C Lydian. This example would be one way to modulate, or change keys using a parallel Major in the Key of C and modulate to the Key of G.

I'm sorry I have no idea what your talking about, but it has little to do with modes. Sounds like a bunch of gibberish. If you raise the fourth degree of a major scale you will alter it from an Ionian scale to a Lydian, but if you truly want to take advantage of the modes the underlying chords (beneath the scale) are equally as important as the scale itself. Thus the reason for modal chord progressions.

if you play F lydian over a static C major chord, you are just playing a major scale starting on the note "F" the fourth degree of the scale. If you play the F Lydian over a F Major7 b5, now you are playing within the Lydian mode (Mode# 1) and not the Ionian (mode# 4) as is the case above.

No reason to be sorry. If you look at the gibberish from a theory standpoint, it's pointing to the importance of modes and the ability they have outside of their "Parent Scale". Modes have the potential to carry their own identity and allow creative relationships to other scales (both Major and minor).
Modes can be expressed in many ways, from songs written in a mode, to modulation.
When studing parallel modes, the subtle change in intervals build other relationships;
The only difference between the C Major (C Ionian mode) and the C Lydian mode is a #4th interval.
C Ionian = 1-2-3-4-5-6-7
C Lydian = 1-2-3-#4-5-6-7 (relative to G Ionian)

The only difference between C Ionian and C Mixolydian is a b7th interval.
C Mixolydian = 1-2-3-4-5-6-b7 (relative to F Ionian)

The only difference between C Mixolydian and C Lydian Dominant is the same #4th interval common with C Ionian and C Lydian.
C Lydian Dominant = 1-2-3-#4-5-6-b7 (relative to G Melodic minor).

There are many other combinations and relationships that derive from modes.

The point of all this gibberish is to offer a way in viewing the powerful role modes have as their own entity in regard to composition.
Both CMaj7b5 and C7b5 chords are considered Major by composition, however, playing the C7b5 over the C Lydian Dominant mode will bring interest when incorporated in a minor progression.
When creating a progression that you want to reflect your mood, look toward modes for assistance. They allow passages in expression going from a Major sound to a minor to a Major, etc.... with flow.

ummmm....what is your point again? this thread started with someone asking what mode to play over a simple chord progression, I'm pretty sure I answered that, but for some reason your talking about the idea of modalization. Important yes, from a theory point of view but entirely useless from a practical standpoint. Sure Mixolydian and Lydian Dominant are closely related from an step pattern perspective, but they are completely oposite from a melodic one. Fact is that I could play a Lydian Dominant over any minor chord and achieve varying levels of moods and atmosphere, but a C7b5 is the "best" choice for this type a scale. I guess were saying the same thing just different ways, which is cool...........not everybody learns the same way. Cheers

J

Originally Posted by: castlinerHey guys. I am new to the site and was wondering if someone could help me out with some questions on theory. I was looking over a site with lessons discussing modal theory. The lesson went something like this: Key of G

Here is where he confused methough. Two pages later he breaks down the differences in the modes with a chart as follows.
IONIAN 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-1
DORIAN 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7-1
and he says to get the dorian just take the ionian and flat 3rd and 7th

So first he tells me the Dorian would be A-B-C-D-E-F#-G-A.
Then if I understood his chart, the Dorian would be G-A-A#-C-D-E-F-G
Can anyone straighten me out on this?
Also, would the available chords change in going to the Dorian?
This is my first post so hopefully someone can help. Thanks.

The point I was trying to make pertains to this Quote, in hope that anyone eager to learn about modes might see their capabilities and how effective they can be. By showing the correlation between variables may turn the lightbulb on with someone in understanding what type of relationship they create. Many that try to learn theory from a chart become confused because they can't grasp the concept from where the chart originates. They memorize the patterns but don't see the theory behind them.
You make a great point in that not everyone learns the same way and I agree that's cool. That's what makes this such a great site. Sharing knowledge with different views, help to offer insight in many ways. People interpret so many things differently, especially from a written perspective.
As long as the theory shared is correct and not misleading, then It's all good.

Well said.