Anti-War/Anti-Bush Music

Originally Posted by: hunter60But I see what people are saying now about the war and frankly, if you don't agree, fine. But shut up, you know? .

No...I don't know. I cannot believe that musicians (I mean us) are anti-protest songs...even if you disagree with the words being sung. I do believe that our brave soldiers should not used to fight for a people who kill them.

Originally Posted by: z0s0_jpNo...I don't know.

I meant (and it doesn't come out in the post - sorry. I wasn't really awake when I wrote it) was that celebrities spouting off politicial opinions means nothing to me. I enjoy their work as artists but I really don't care if Tim Robbins or Susan Sarandon or Martin Sheen....or whoever, agrees with the war or not. I don't tell them how to act (or write or sing or play...) so why do I need to have them tell me how to think? They are entertainers. Not (for the most part)politicians.

Just an opinion dude. Neither right nor wrong.

Hunter, I know you don't want politicians to tell ya how to think either ;)
It hurts our people when we are in a fight we don't all agree on and when you care about the people laying down their lives for a cause that is arguable....when our soldiers are sent to fight it should be an unarguable reason in my opinion. Going after Bin Laden is unarguable but you will probably get even that being argued on a much smaller level :rolleyes:
I dig what you are saying though..but I am sure you would lay down your life for the right to protest our government or fight for a cause you believe is just.

Originally Posted by: z0s0_jpHunter, I know you don't want politicians to tell ya how to think either ;)
It hurts our people when we are in a fight we don't all agree on and when you care about the people laying down their lives for a cause that is arguable....when our soldiers are sent to fight it should be an unarguable reason in my opinion. Going after Bin Laden is unarguable but you will probably get even that being argued on a much smaller level :rolleyes:
I dig what you are saying though..but I am sure would lay down your life for the right to protest our government.

Right on. When I signed on the dotted line and did my four, I did it with open eyes. If the President had said "Go, fight and quite possibly die" I would have gone even if I disagreed with what the fight was about. And yes, I would give my life to protect those basic rights. The right to freedom of speech, religion..etc. What's the phrase? Freedom isn't free. There is a HUGE cost to those freedoms. I may not agree with what has happened in Iraq but, believe it or not, not so much from a reason we are there, but what has happened since we've gotten there. From a military aspect, it's a total screw-up. And yet, we are there. Get it done. Support the troops, support the mission. But take the leg irons off the troops and let them do what they are there to do.

My problem with so much protest music is 1) it's counter-productive for the troops. They need to know we are behind them 100% and 2) that so many artists putting out this music have never served. They are singing about this being wrong...etc. And in turn, they make money, in some cases, millions of dollars from protesting? So they can jet around the country, retire to the Malibu Hills, drive around in their Hummers and take on this air of smug liberal pomposity...I find the diametric oposition to be infuriating.

But of course, they have that right. That right was paid for many times in blood. I just don't want them to forget that. Ever.

Originally Posted by: z0s0_jpHunter, I know you don't want politicians to tell ya how to think either ;)
It hurts our people when we are in a fight we don't all agree on and when you care about the people laying down their lives for a cause that is arguable....when our soldiers are sent to fight it should be an unarguable reason in my opinion. Going after Bin Laden is unarguable but you will probably get even that being argued on a much smaller level :rolleyes:
I dig what you are saying though..but I am sure you would lay down your life for the right to protest our government or fight for a cause you believe is just.

Ah... using that logic, no war is worth fighting. Not World War II, not the Civil War, not the Revolutionary War.

Read "Team of Rivals" some time; you'll find the contemporary characterizations and criticisms of Abraham Lincoln to be incredibly similar to those of G.W. Bush.

Bush is no Lincoln, but still, public opinion very rarely has much of anything to do with truth or historical posterity.

Originally Posted by: RaskolnikovAh... using that logic, no war is worth fighting. Not World War II, not the Civil War, not the Revolutionary War.

Read "Team of Rivals" some time; you'll find the contemporary characterizations and criticisms of Abraham Lincoln to be incredibly similar to those of G.W. Bush.

Bush is no Lincoln, but still, public opinion very rarely has much of anything to do with truth or historical posterity.

wtf??????? Bush is a dumbass. I think I said all wars are arguable to a degree,
so it must be debated and "real" evidence substanciated before going to war, unlike the war in Iraq was.

Originally Posted by: hunter60

My problem with so much protest music is 1) it's counter-productive for the troops. They need to know we are behind them 100% and 2) that so many artists putting out this music have never served. They are singing about this being wrong...etc. And in turn, they make money, in some cases, millions of dollars from protesting? So they can jet around the country, retire to the Malibu Hills, drive around in their Hummers and take on this air of smug liberal pomposity...I find the diametric oposition to be infuriating.

Word.

I read a report today on Cnn.com that said 58% of American people want our troops out of Iraq before 2008. All that says to me is there's a whole lot of people that want to see Iraq reduced to nothing more than a civil war torn 3rd world country with no political system.

Not sure how you'd feel about a world super power coming over and dethroning your dictator, throwing your country into termoil. Then, before the country restores order, they pull out all their troops and leave you dealing with the post war politics... without a political system.

Sounds like a great idea guys............... the common denominator in protest is detatched ignorance... Detatched meaning they have no connection to what is going on over there besides what they read in the news. To me, the people that SHOULD carry the loudest voice in a war protest are the men and woman that put their bodies in the line of fire for those that are too weak to do so on their own... I believe that the armchair politicians should just deal with the fact that if it weren't for the very people that they're protesting against... they wouldn't be allowed an opinion at all.

I watched the "Explorer: North Korea" on National Geographic and lets just say it renewed my love for democracy...

OK, I never thought an attack on a sovereign nation was appropriate (and I won't again when Iran gets attacked), but that said I am in total support of the troops out there doing their thing. They cannot pick which wars to fight, and deserve our collective respect for their sacrifice, regardless of your point of view on the specifics. Hopefully for the most part they get it, and any criticism is directed to the policy makers rather than the front line.

Ironic really that some use the hard-won freedom they have to run down the next generation of those who helped bestow it upon them.

Maybe something intelligent will come of talking to Iran and Syria, or maybe it'll be situation they can manipulate - who knows. I don't care what the Dixie Chicks have to say on the subject (or any other subject for that matter), but when the most senior guy in the British army says that Allied troops are part of the problem rather than the solution I think the opinion may have some validity.

It's difficult ever saying that people who don't agree with the war should 'shut up', or those who are ill-informed, or who didn't vote have no right to an opinion and those without a useful grasp of fact shouldn't vote either.... seems to fly in the face of the freedom we enjoy. The average IQ is 100 (duh!) - if you ever meet someone who has a 100 IQ it will probably be behind the counter at Wendy's etc. Based on the law of averages, there are way more people below 100 than there are above. If intelligence was used as a qualifier for the vote, probably the people running wouldn't qualify, nevermind the voters. And the President? Don't make me laugh...

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - Tallentyre on Voltaire

Originally Posted by: renOK, I never thought an attack on a sovereign nation was appropriate (and I won't again when Iran gets attacked), but that said I am in total support of the troops out there doing their thing. They cannot pick which wars to fight, and deserve our collective respect for their sacrifice, regardless of your point of view on the specifics. Hopefully for the most part they get it, and any criticism is directed to the policy makers rather than the front line.

Ironic really that some use the hard-won freedom they have to run down the next generation of those who helped bestow it upon them.

Maybe something intelligent will come of talking to Iran and Syria, or maybe it'll be situation they can manipulate - who knows. I don't care what the Dixie Chicks have to say on the subject (or any other subject for that matter), but when the most senior guy in the British army says that Allied troops are part of the problem rather than the solution I think the opinion may have some validity.

It's difficult ever saying that people who don't agree with the war should 'shut up', or those who are ill-informed, or who didn't vote have no right to an opinion and those without a useful grasp of fact shouldn't vote either.... seems to fly in the face of the freedom we enjoy. The average IQ is 100 (duh!) - if you ever meet someone who has a 100 IQ it will probably be behind the counter at Wendy's etc. Based on the law of averages, there are way more people below 100 than there are above. If intelligence was used as a qualifier for the vote, probably the people running wouldn't qualify, nevermind the voters. And the President? Don't make me laugh...

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - Tallentyre on Voltaire

I really need to learn to edit myself a little better :o My point in saying that they should 'shut up' was more than a little wrong and I did try to clarify it a bit in another post. I was aiming more at those who are making money on protest music. You're right. They have an absolute right to say and sing whatever they want. No question there. I just find it troubling that they are essentially turning protest into business. Plus it galls me to think that they have access to this HUGE platform to espouse their rhetoric and yet the average civilian does not. So they preach to the same kids in their cars who wouldn't sit through the news or Meet The Press with a gun to their heads. They have a powerful influence over a large population and with that sort of power comes a responsibility. (ohhhh man, you gotta love a Spiderman reference in the middle of a rant!) And I just think it's detrimental to the troops fighting to have the airwaves filled with songs that could be construed as anti-military.

My feelings on the war are known, I think. I disagree with our presence there. War should always be a final option. This war was predicated on two things: 1) a wanton bloodlust in a post-9/11 world and 2) profit. There was no strategic military reason to wage war here. Not at that time. I know what the White House and the CIA have said. I know what was later shown to be untrue. Be that as it may, we are there now. Iraq was a mess BEFORE we got there and, don't kid yourself, it's in worse shape now. Yes, the people are free. Free to die starving in the streets. Are they better or worse than before our invasion? I don't know. You have to take that up with people smarter than me. But the point is, we broke it, we have to fix it. To pull out right now would be a far greater sin than having gone there in the first place.

I am not advocating in increase in troop involvement. I am advocating that we simply allow the military AND civilian authorities get this government up and running and self-sufficient as soon as possible and let's go home. Take the leg irons off, quit trying to run a 'proper' war (by the way, there is no such thing), get a clear objective on the table and move forward.

And as far as the President... As a former military man, I would obey the orders of the Commander in Chief once given because blind and immediate reaction to orders is what makes the military run. However, as a civilian, one of my fundemental rights is the right to question those orders and those who make them. Make no mistake about it, I think the President is a buffoon. Not as a measure of intelligence but in the policies enacted under his regime. I didn't vote for him either time and I do not regret that decision at all. But he is my country's leader, ergo, my leader and I will afford him the respect that his office deserves, if not the man himself.

Alright, anyone wanna get a ladder so I can climb down from this soapbox? :rolleyes:

And don't get me started on 'average intelligence'. I hope you're wrong Ren but I suspect you're right. Intelligence does not seem to be that valued of a commodity these days. But then again, I have met some youngsters coming up that stun me with the level and depth of their thought. There might be some hope for us after all.

I think the fact is, this war isn't against Iraq. It wasn't against Sadaam. It wasn't W fighting "daddy's war." It's not against any certain country. It wasn't necessarily the US seeking vengenance after 9/11. (Though that was the straw that broke the camel's back) It's against terrorism. Is Iraq a terrorist harboring nation? You bet your ass it is. It would be naive to say otherwise. Did they have WMD's? Ask those burried in the mass graves. We are battling a group that always is there yet just as quickly can disappear. They don't fight by the rules of war, yet we have generally have, aside from a few cases. They target our innocent civilians just as easily as they target our troops.

Should have they been our primary target? Thats debatable. If you ask me, we've got quite a bit on our plate right now. Essentially the entire middle east has a hardon for killing us. Seemed like a decent place to start to me, being that Sadaam has bs'd the UN weapons inspectors time and time again.

I'm behind the president 100%. I don't think the war has been executed in the best fashion, but if we were to pull out now, we have created a bigger problem than we have destroyed and many more innocent will die.

As its been said, hearing anti-war songs over the airwaves sends an awful signal to our troops. Confused teens that can't think for themselves eat those things up because its rebellious. They need all the support they can get. War sucks. Everyone knows that. In a perfect world, it wouldn't be necessary. But its not nor will it ever be.

Originally Posted by: grizzlymint

As its been said, hearing anti-war songs over the airwaves sends an awful signal to our troops. Confused teens that can't think for themselves eat those things up because its rebellious. They need all the support they can get. War sucks.

Pretty much sums up everything that needs to be said in this thread.

Originally Posted by: grizzlymintI don't think the war has been executed in the best fashion, but if we were to pull out now, we have created a bigger problem than we have destroyed and many more innocent will die.

As its been said, hearing anti-war songs over the airwaves sends an awful signal to our troops. Confused teens that can't think for themselves eat those things up because its rebellious. They need all the support they can get. War sucks. Everyone knows that. In a perfect world, it wouldn't be necessary. But its not nor will it ever be.

Yup. Ohh rah.