Virgin Tube buyer needs suggestions


magicninja
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magicninja
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07/30/2006 2:38 pm
Originally Posted by: LordathestringsSome amps (I think Seymor Duncan is one brand) have a triode/pentode switch that changes the screen grid connection, dropping the power by 1/2 or more.

I know for sure that some of the Gibson models have this feature.
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# 1
blueradish
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blueradish
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07/30/2006 4:23 pm
Originally Posted by: AllroyI'm looking for my first tube amp. I would like it to be in the $400-$900 range. I play metal, punk, classic rock, and blues. This amp will be used to play in my apartment. I thought maybe a B-52, but it is 100Watts(head) or 150Watts(2x12 combo). That would be way too loud for an apartment. Any ideas?

EDIT: Could I play the amp at a low volume and use a pedal for distortion? If that is a stupid question it is because I know nothing about tube amps. Also, I loved the sound clips from that Scorpion but I did not love the price. :eek:


In my travels I've found that a 30watt 1x12 combo can only be turned up to about 4 in my house before things fall of shelves. As mentioned in other posts this can be solved with a Marshall Power Brake or a Hot Plate Power Attenuator.

Precisely why I've decided that a 15 or 18 watt will do fine for my basement. I think that out of all the amps I listed in the first post of this thread, the THD Univalve is the one for me. That way I have the ablility to crank it getting the full benefit of a tube amp. The beautiful thing about this amp is that it has a built in Hot Plate Power Attenuator. Hence, I could probably step to a 30 watt. The THD Uni can be found on eBay for around $500 or at online stores for around $950.

In your case you may need to be a little more careful due to the close proximity of your neighbors.
# 2
Allroy
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Allroy
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07/30/2006 4:53 pm
I went to the website of THD and it sounds perfect. What kind of cab do you use? I was thinking of the Avatar that Lord of the Rings recommended.

EDIT: Would 15Watts be enough if you were going to play in a bar or with friends in the basement?
# 3
blueradish
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blueradish
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07/31/2006 2:31 am
Originally Posted by: AllroyI went to the website of THD and it sounds perfect. What kind of cab do you use? I was thinking of the Avatar that Lord of the Rings recommended.

EDIT: Would 15Watts be enough if you were going to play in a bar or with friends in the basement?


I haven't quite got to the cabinet stage yet. Just been researching the heads.

I don't think a 15 would cut it in a bar, depending on the size. There may be some more experienced giggers out here that could answer that. As for the basement, the 30watt combo at 4 was set perfect to jam in my basement with vocals and drums.

With all the talk of getting the most of a tube by cranking it, I'd rather have a 15 or 18 cranked to 7 or 8 than a 30 at 4. However, I will never need my amp for gigs.
# 4
Lordathestrings
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Lordathestrings
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07/31/2006 4:59 am
Originally Posted by: blueradish ... I'd rather have a 15 or 18 cranked to 7 or 8 than a 30 at 4. ...


Ah, the light comes on... :cool:




This is why so many people have put so much time and effort into finding a way to adjust the output of a tube amp without losing that tone. So far, all of the techniques being used appear to have some trade-offs.

Most of the classic Master Volume circuits simply reduce the level of the preamp signal that reaches the power amp. This is OK if your distortion tone originates in a stompbox, or in the preamp. If you crave the sound of raging power tubes, MV amps don't make it.

Attenuators like the Hot Plate, Power Brake, and the MASS all take the full output of the amp, dissipate most of it internally, and pass the remainder to the speaker(s). This allows you to crank up the amp to where the power tubes are singing, but that reduced signal doesn't push the speakers as hard, and some speakers need to be driven at a certain level in order to hit that 'sweet spot' where they sound best. All attenuators affect the tone, and you also lose that interraction between the amp and the speaker. Acoustic feedback? Fugedabowdit! And because the power tubes are still being driven hard, they wear out fast.

Power Scaling has some distinct advantages over MV or attenuator setups, but it isn't perfect either. By reducing all of the voltages applied to the tubes, the life expectancy is greatly extended. There is some effect on the tone, but its certainly no worse than attenuators. There's still the issues of 'sweet spot' speakers and the reduced feedback sustain, but the amp does interract with the speaker.

A technique sometimes used in studios is to install a speaker inside a completely sealed cabinet lined with sound absorbent material. A microphone is also installed in the cab, which allows the sound of the speaker to be recorded without having to deal with high SPL in the room. The sound is not very natural. There's no room ambience, or interraction between the speaker and guitar.

The trend is definitely towards smaller amps, with a mic and/or a DI feed to the PA system. But not every club has a decent PA, and I know a lot of guys who insist on keeping their 100 Watt monster amps. Hell, I ain't selling my VT-22, even if I don't have anywhere I can really crank it up.

Ya pays yer money, an ya makes yer choices.
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# 5
Allroy
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Allroy
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07/31/2006 2:12 pm
Is a 4x12 louder than a 2x12 cabinet or just larger sounding(richer)?
# 6
Lordathestrings
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Lordathestrings
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07/31/2006 3:29 pm
I think its time you learned how to use the Search button at the top of the page. We've had a lot of disussion on this, and I'm not going to type it out again.
Lordathestrings
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# 7
Allroy
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Allroy
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07/31/2006 3:55 pm
Does anyone with a non condescending attitude know? :confused: If I knew what to search for I would not be asking.
# 8
PRSplaya
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PRSplaya
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07/31/2006 4:12 pm
do a search for "2x12", "4x12", "cabinet", "speakers", etc...

LATS wasn't being condescending to you. He was actually trying to be helpful. We have had a lot of discussion on topics such as that, so it would be beneficial to you, if you used the search function of the forum to search for these threads.
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# 9
Allroy
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Allroy
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07/31/2006 4:53 pm
I did search first and I didn't see what I was looking for.

Originally Posted by: LordathestringsI think its time you learned how to use the Search button at the top of the page. We've had a lot of disussion on this, and I'm not going to type it out again.


If he was trying to be helpful, he would have said something like "do a search for x because this has been written about a lot". Instead, condescension and sarcasm were used. I have no patience for people like that. They end up discouraging people new to something from asking for advice.
# 10
PRSplaya
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PRSplaya
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07/31/2006 5:25 pm
I found these by doing a search for "4x12"

http://www.guitartricks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19794&highlight=4x12

http://www.guitartricks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18207&highlight=4x12

http://www.guitartricks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13862&highlight=4x12

http://www.guitartricks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8374&highlight=4x12

That's just in this forum, do a search in the Tech Talk section as well, if you still don't find what you're looking for. It really is that easy. Nobody's trying to discourage new members from asking advice. We just try to encourage all members to use the search feature first, and then ask questions later. This keeps members who have been here a while from having to keep repeating themselfs over and over again.
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# 11
blueradish
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blueradish
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Posts: 23
07/31/2006 6:01 pm
Originally Posted by: LordathestringsAh, the light comes on... :cool:




This is why so many people have put so much time and effort into finding a way to adjust the output of a tube amp without losing that tone. So far, all of the techniques being used appear to have some trade-offs.

Most of the classic Master Volume circuits simply reduce the level of the preamp signal that reaches the power amp. This is OK if your distortion tone originates in a stompbox, or in the preamp. If you crave the sound of raging power tubes, MV amps don't make it.

Attenuators like the Hot Plate, Power Brake, and the MASS all take the full output of the amp, dissipate most of it internally, and pass the remainder to the speaker(s). This allows you to crank up the amp to where the power tubes are singing, but that reduced signal doesn't push the speakers as hard, and some speakers need to be driven at a certain level in order to hit that 'sweet spot' where they sound best. All attenuators affect the tone, and you also lose that interraction between the amp and the speaker. Acoustic feedback? Fugedabowdit! And because the power tubes are still being driven hard, they wear out fast.

Power Scaling has some distinct advantages over MV or attenuator setups, but it isn't perfect either. By reducing all of the voltages applied to the tubes, the life expectancy is greatly extended. There is some effect on the tone, but its certainly no worse than attenuators. There's still the issues of 'sweet spot' speakers and the reduced feedback sustain, but the amp does interract with the speaker.

A technique sometimes used in studios is to install a speaker inside a completely sealed cabinet lined with sound absorbent material. A microphone is also installed in the cab, which allows the sound of the speaker to be recorded without having to deal with high SPL in the room. The sound is not very natural. There's no room ambience, or interraction between the speaker and guitar.

The trend is definitely towards smaller amps, with a mic and/or a DI feed to the PA system. But not every club has a decent PA, and I know a lot of guys who insist on keeping their 100 Watt monster amps. Hell, I ain't selling my VT-22, even if I don't have anywhere I can really crank it up.

Ya pays yer money, an ya makes yer choices.


Thanks LOTS, wealth of knowledge.
# 12
Allroy
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Allroy
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07/31/2006 8:28 pm
Thanks for the help PRSplaya.
# 13

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