Originally Posted by: PonyOneIf you want to simplify it down to its most short-sightedly basic interpretation. The overall system of capitalism is one where the means and methods of production, as well as the organization of services and of overall trade, is run by privately owned businesses who take investments from other private individuals to finance growth.[/QUOTE]

Actually, capitalism is not a system at all. It is the spontaneous order of individuals freely interacting with one another-providing services and remuneration.

Originally Posted by: PonyOneWhat this means in practice is medications that are out-of-reach for many of the people who need them. It means that it costs $1300 to go and get your ankle looked at for a half an hour at a hospital (yes, that's how much they charged me to sit there for a couple hours and then have a doctor tell me it was sprained, write me a presciption for Motrin and give me a print out from webmd.com!!). I have insurance, thankfully, but what about those who don't have insurance? What about the millions of hard workers who staff the shops that we go and exercise our freedom of financial choice at who work at places like Barnes and Noble and The Gap, who are notorious for trying as hard as possible to not give employees benefiets, who schedule their employees for 28 or 29 hours a week so that it goes under the 30 hour mark that equals full-time and necessitates medical benefiets? And before you say "well, they're free to go work somewhere else," which is true on a theorietical level, on a practical level it can be very difficult to find work at that level that will support someone in a major urban center enough to give themselves basic niceties like a car and an apartment let alone school to get them a "real" job. And then the argument comes back to "where do we get the people to staff those low-level jobs that make the basic infrastructure that makes capitalism work from in the first place, and is it right to stand by and go off of legal technicalities that fleece them of their a decent life?"[/QUOTE]

All of these things will still have a large cost. In fact, in socialist countries they are more expensive because of the inherent inefficiency of a command economy. Also, in the US, drug companies give away millions of dollars of drugs to indigent people. That is called actual charity.

Originally Posted by: PonyOneWhat about companies like Enron, who screwed thousands out of hard-working, devoted people out of their life's work, orchestrated a massive financial raping of the public, all for the gain of a few guys at the top? A few years ago the company was held up as a model of capitalist success; now it's synonymous with completely and utterly unethical business practices, and they're just the ones who got caught.[/Quote]

Enron pales in comparison to the fraud and waste committed by the welfare programs in the US. Billions of dollars every year. It makes Ken Lay look like a piker. Ken Lay was held responsible. The government keeps taking my money with the threat of force and is never held responsible.

Originally Posted by: PonyOneIt's the disproportionate dispersal of power, and the average working people who fall for the myth of "anyone can make it" that those very greedy individuals perpetuate to get others below them to spend more money and adhere to it like a religion that frustrates me and pisses me off.

This is false. Most millionaires are average working-class people who save their money and spend wisely. There was a great book written about this called The Millionaire Next Door. Only about 20% of wealthy people inherit their wealth. Also, young people tend to be in lower income brackets while older people tend to be in higher ones.

[QUOTE=PonyOne]Examples of modern socialist countries: Germany, Sweden, Japan... all of them have large numbers of socialized offices and caps on commerce and industry in the interest of the public, but still allow many free-market financial practices.

They have some of the highest unemployment rates because of the oppressive taxation to support their welfare states. Also, products are dramatically more expensive their(Germany, Sweden...). In Sweden, where my great grand parents were from, they have massive housing shortages because of the rent control. In France, another socialist economy, industry and wealthy people are fleeing because of the taxation. In fact, there was a story last week from France that said about 1 millionaire was leaving France every day because of a tax called the "solidarity tax". It is the equivalent of the Alternative Minimum Tax here in the US. It's purpose is to take even more money from wealthy productive people(i.e. soak the rich). The story stated that some people had an effective tax rate of 130%. In other words, their entire salary was taken plus 30%. No wonder they leave their country.

[QUOTE=PonyOne] Yeah, you can spend your paycheck however you want! But you're a member of that nation's society, and as such, you pay your dues and you enjoy knowing that no matter what, you have healthcare, you have a (decent) education, and so does everyone else.

All of the services you mention are some of the worst in the US(you forgot the post office). In fact, people who pay tens of thousands of dollars in property taxes still pay an additional $10,000-$20,000 to send their kids to private schools. That is how poorly government provides services. In nations with socialist healthcare, private hospitals are created because the government run ones are so bad.

[QUOTE=PonyOne]I like being able to choose what kind of guitars I own, and that I drive a Jetta with a 2.8 liter V6, that I wear Pumas and Doc Martens and listen to the bands that I want, but none of that has anything to do with a contemporary socialized government. I could still have all of the above if I lived in any of the countries I noted above.

And it would cost you twice what it does here because of the taxes.(in other words you couldn't have those things there, especially if you were lower class) And that is what "global warming", the political issue, is all about - taxes.

Thanks for the lively debate. I really do appreciate your posts about guitars - you're quite knowledgable on that subject. God Bless you brother.