how do you know what scale a song is in

I can recognise what a key a song is in sometimes but where do you go from there? Is the next step to identify what scale its in because I just tend to assume everything is in the major scale.

Originally Posted by: B_DylanI can recognise what a key a song is in sometimes but where do you go from there? Is the next step to identify what scale its in because I just tend to assume everything is in the major scale.

???

If it's in the key of C you'd play a Cmajor scale. If it's in the key of Aminor you'd play an Aminor scale. That's what key is. It's based off the tonic scale.

Originally Posted by: Jolly McJollyson???

If it's in the key of C you'd play a Cmajor scale. If it's in the key of Aminor you'd play an Aminor scale. That's what key is. It's based off the tonic scale.

If the song is in the key of "C" you can play other scales than the obvious.
for example you can play:
A minor Pentatonic. [A,C,D,E,G]
D minor Pentatonic. [D,F,G,A,C]
G Pentatonic......... [G,A,B,C,D]
The reason you can play these scales is because they contain the notes of the "C major scale"

Originally Posted by: equatorIf the song is in the key of "C" you can play other scales than the obvious.
for example you can play:
A minor Pentatonic. [A,C,D,E,G]
D minor Pentatonic. [D,F,G,A,C]
G Pentatonic......... [G,A,B,C,D]
The reason you can play these scales is because they contain the notes of the "C major scale"

I know that, but the notes you would emphasize would still (given the same chord progression) likely be the strong notes (I V etc) of C Major, thus it would still technically be a Cmajor scale. Other scales you could play include G Major (Given a few interesting chromatic chords or a brief modulation) and actually just about EVERY major or minor scale out there, assuming you made the appropriate chromatic modulations. In fact, you could play in C# major if you really wanted to and were clever about it. But because this guy seemed so confused as to what a key was vs. a scale, I think we may want to stay pretty basic. To reitterate, if a song is in the key of C that means it is based (diatonically) around the C major scale. If a key is in Dminor it means that it is based (diatonically) off the D minor scale.

If you want to think of patterns, then yes, you could also (in C for example) play the Am patterns or the D Dorian patterns or the E phrygian patterns and what-have-you, but you'd be sure to emphasize the notes in C major that require emphasis, and thus wouldn't really be playing these relative scales at all. But it does help, sometimes, to think of the patterns.

Originally Posted by: Jolly McJollyson thus it would still technically be a Cmajor scale. his guy seemed so confused as to what a key was vs. a scale, I think we may want to stay pretty basic.

If you want to think of patterns, then yes, you could also (in C for example) play the Am patterns or the D Dorian patterns or the E phrygian patterns and thus wouldn't really be playing these relative scales at all. But it does help, sometimes, to think of the patterns.

I wouldn`t say that if you play those scales then you are "technically" playing a "C major Scale".
Technically means that you are actually playing the "C major scale"

What I`m suggesting is playing others scales to attain a Virtual "C major scale"

I don`t know why you are infering that I think in scale patterns only.
When I`m analizing any music subject, I see the big picture, that is:
Standard notation, relative scales, compatibility, consonance, linear scales,
scale patterns, tablature, diagrams, intervals, etc.

Originally Posted by: equatorI wouldn`t say that if you play those scales then you are "technically" playing a "C major Scale".
Technically means that you are actually playing the "C major scale"

Right, and that's what I meant. If you emphasize the notes you'd emphasize with a normal C major backing, you'd be playing a C major scale no matter what you choose to label it. If C is your root note, you're not playing D dorian.

Originally Posted by: Jolly McJollysonRight, and that's what I meant. If you emphasize the notes you'd emphasize with a normal C major backing, you'd be playing a C major scale no matter what you choose to label it. If C is your root note, you're not playing D dorian.

It is not what I choose to label it. It is what Music Theory calls it.
A "G major pentatonic scale" is gonna show an "F#" in the key signature in standard notation, because the parent scale is G Major not "C Major"
In the same way a "D minor pentatonic scale" is gonna show a "Bb" in the key signature, because the parent scale is D minor; not "C major".
So, if you play those scales you can`t say that you are playing a C major scale. You would be playing a G major pentatonic scale over "C" in the first case and, a D minor pentatonic over "C" in the second case.

And yes. You would say D dorian when you play the second mode of the C major scale, or C dorian when you play the second mode of the "Bb major scale".
You can read more about this in:
Guitar World
presents
Jhon Petrucci`s
Wild Stringdom.

OK, just to throw a few more confusions into the ring.

What key is it in? Generally it will depend on the start and end chords. Then you have to consider what chords are used in the rest of the piece.

Example: A song starts with C chord but uses G and D chords. That'll probably be in G then........

A useful little table

CFG Basic chords in C
DGA
EAB
FBbC
GCD
ADE
BEF#

You can also "modulate" (i.e. change key) within a piece. A simple example is where a straight blues in A moves up to B for a dramatic effect. You might come back to the home key but not always.

Now how do you work out what scale you want?

Every chord is made up of a number of notes that have a particular relationship to each other. Let's look at the simple "major triad".

C - the notes in the scale of C are C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C

A major triad is made up of the 1st 3rd and 5th notes of the scale

Therefore C is C, E and G and if you're in the key of C you'll be wanting notes from the C scale. You might also want to consider notes from the F and G scales when the chords move.

I think this is probably way too much information and I don't have the time now to explain it properly. I'll try and get back in the next few weeks and do it again :D

Cheers

Dick

To the person who asked the question:
If you can identify the chords of a piece; you may want to opt for a chord by chord approach to soloing.
For example if you know that the chord is a "D major Chord" then play a D major scale, and if it changes to "Fm#" then play an Fm# scale.
That is a safe way of soloing.
Empirical but effective.

Originally Posted by: equatorIt is not what I choose to label it. It is what Music Theory calls it.
A "G major pentatonic scale" is gonna show an "F#" in the key signature in standard notation, because the parent scale is G Major not "C Major"
In the same way a "D minor pentatonic scale" is gonna show a "Bb" in the key signature, because the parent scale is D minor; not "C major".
So, if you play those scales you can`t say that you are playing a C major scale. You would be playing a G major pentatonic scale over "C" in the first case and, a D minor pentatonic over "C" in the second case.

And yes. You would say D dorian when you play the second mode of the C major scale, or C dorian when you play the second mode of the "Bb major scale".
You can read more about this in:
Guitar World
presents
Jhon Petrucci`s
Wild Stringdom.

We're talking about a song in Cmajor aren't we? Why do songs in different keys concern us? Yes, if the song were in G major there would be an F# in the key signature. I'm saying no matter what you choose to label the scale you're playing over the C major backing (if it is a relative scale you indeed are playing, which is what you indicated in the post I responded to), in actuality you are playing the same notes as are in the C major scale, emphasizing root and fifth, and thus playing a Cmajor scale. Even if you call the notes you're playing "D Dorian" or "G Mixolydian," if your root is still C, you're playing C major. Until your root changes to D or G you're not actually playing these relative scales.
You can read more about this in the introductory chapters of either:
Structural Functions in Music
by Wallace Berry

or

Harmony and Voice Leading 3rd Edition
Ed. Edward Aldwell & Carl Schachter