some help with modes please

I read over and over and over and eat and then read again, but I just don't understand why the "Aeolian mode" is not referred to as "diatonic minor scale" and why the "Ionian mode" is not referred to as "diatonic major scale", get my problem? What's the difference in modes and scales and why are there only seven scales ( or am I wrong there? ) turned to modes.

Originally Posted by: kill em allI read over and over and over and eat and then read again, but I just don't understand why the "Aeolian mode" is not referred to as "diatonic minor scale" and why the "Ionian mode" is not referred to as "diatonic major scale", get my problem? What's the difference in modes and scales and why are there only seven scales ( or am I wrong there? ) turned to modes.

I'm guessing people use Ionian instead of diatonic major scale for a similar reason that they would say Bb instead of A# when playing in F Major. Sometimes you're not working with a Diatonic minor scale, rather the Aeolian mode. Though two different scales have all the same notes in them they can still be manipulated to sound very different. And the differences between one scale and another are the intervals between each note. You can start on F and end on F, but it's the notes in between that determine how the trip will turn out and the notes between the two F notes are determined by intervals. If you've got nothing but major and perfect intervals (major scale) then things, by nature, will sound happier. If you've got a messload of minor and diminished intervals (Locrian mode) between the two F notes then it will come out darker.

Essentially all it takes to turn a scale into a mode is to play it on any note other than the one that the scale is based around. So if we take G major (G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, G) and start on B we have B, C, D, E, F#, G, A, B. The same method can be applied to any scale, but the reason why it only seems like 7 scales get that treatment is because it's much easier to keep the attention span of a newbie to start with something simple and easy to digest rather than going off on some abstract 8-note scale right after the C Major introduction. I hope this helps to at least some degree. Let me (or anyone else at that) know if none of this makes sense. Plenty of people here know their material so, after so much reading it'll sort of click.

Originally Posted by: Cryptic ExcretionsI'm guessing people use Ionian instead of diatonic major scale for a similar reason that they would say Bb instead of A# when playing in F Major.

Is spot on. Try not to get too caught up on the name's of things. Being aware of their various names is useful, but as long as you know yourself what mode you need to play, that's the main thing.

On a lingustic note, I suspect, (and I'd be interested to know if anyone out that has some knowledge) that Ionian is a non-English term, (though I wouldn't like to guess what language), while Diatonic Major is the "English" (yes, yes, I know it's part Latin or Greek, but stay with me here!) term. Same reason we have call chicken's hens and hen's chickens.....

Why've I a feeling the only person I'm interesting is myself?.... Ah well! :rolleyes:

Thanks, I think I get it now. Somehow an actual person has more teaching power than the "guitar handbook". So if I took the Cmajor scale and put the appropriate intervals between notes for Dorian mode (tone,semi-tone,tone,tone,tone,semi-tone,tone) I would be playing in Dorian mode rather than fooling with the Cmajor scale?

Originally Posted by: kill em allThanks, I think I get it now. Somehow an actual person has more teaching power than the "guitar handbook". So if I took the Cmajor scale and put the appropriate intervals between notes for Dorian mode (tone,semi-tone,tone,tone,tone,semi-tone,tone) I would be playing in Dorian mode rather than fooling with the Cmajor scale?

You got it. All you'd have to do is sharp the IV anyhow (F#).

Ionian=Greek most all modal terms have Greek derivitives. AEOLIAN,PHYRAGIAN,MIXOLYDIAN,ect

Originally Posted by: kill em allI read over and over and over and eat and then read again, but I just don't understand why the "Aeolian mode" is not referred to as "diatonic minor scale" and why the "Ionian mode" is not referred to as "diatonic major scale", get my problem? What's the difference in modes and scales and why are there only seven scales ( or am I wrong there? ) turned to modes.

Aeolian is the natural minor. It is 1 2 3b 4 5 6b 7b
Ionian is major- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Phrygian(minor)- 1 2b 3b 4 5 6b 7b
Dorian(minor)-1 2 3b 4 5 6(raised) 7b
Mixolydian(major)-1 2 3 4 5 6 7b
lydian(major)-1 2 3 4# 5 6 7
Locrian(half diminished*)- 1 2b 3b 4 5b 6b 7b
Harmonic minor- 1 2 3b 4 5 6b 7
Melodic minor- 1 2 3b 4 5 6 7

That should cover most of your scale formulas

The greek word "Diatonikos" means playing Natural Tones (notes) only; on the keyboard that`ll be the white keys.
So a "C major Scale" or "C Ionian" is diatonic.
and so is the "A natural minor" or "A aeolian".

The fallowing modes and scales are Diatonic as well:
D dorian
E Phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolidian
A aeolian
B Locrian

"G Major pentatonic" [G,A,B,D,E]
"A minor pentatonic" [A,C,D,E,G]
"E minor pentatonic" [E,G,A,B,D]

Any chord that contains natural notes only is said to be a Diatonic chord:
G=[G,B,D] is a diatonic major triad.
Em=[E,G,B] is a diatonic minor triad.
Dm7=[D,F,A,C] is a diatonic minor seventh chord.

Now compare these two Major scales:
1) {C,D,E,F,G,A,B}
2) {G,A,B,C,D,E,F#}
The first is a diatonic scale. The second, however, is not; because it has the "F#" in it.

Now compare these two minor chords:
1) [A,C,E]
2) [C,Eb,G]

The first is a Diatonic chord. The second one is not, because it contains an "Eb" in it.

The second mode of the "G major Scale" Is "A dorian"
A dorian=[A,B,C,D,E,F#,G]
and is not a diatonic mode, because of the "F#"

I hope that helps.