Modal Question

In any given key the 3rd interval is a modal scale step. So that means it can be flattened to a minor interval without changing the key. But wouldn't flattening the 3rd make the entire key minor. Because with a major third the 1st triad has the root third and fifth, while with a minor third the 1st triad has the root minor third and fifth?

This doesnt make sense to me.

Originally Posted by: HambergIn any given key the 3rd interval is a modal scale step. So that means it can be flattened to a minor interval without changing the key. But wouldn't flattening the 3rd make the entire key minor. Because with a major third the 1st triad has the root third and fifth, while with a minor third the 1st triad has the root minor third and fifth?

This doesnt make sense to me.

Well if u play a major key, say C and C's relative minor is A. U can play an Aminor scale over the major key and the key still keeps its major sound, but ur playing the 6th degree of the scale(Relative minor - Aiolion mode) for a diff sound...modes give a different feeling to any givin key..

Originally Posted by: HambergIn any given key the 3rd interval is a modal scale step. So that means it can be flattened to a minor interval without changing the key. But wouldn't flattening the 3rd make the entire key minor. Because with a major third the 1st triad has the root third and fifth, while with a minor third the 1st triad has the root minor third and fifth?

This doesnt make sense to me.

The third degree of the scale, is not the only one that is used to play modes; you can play modes starting on any degree of the scale.
Another way to look at modes, is thinking of them as inversions of the Scales.
[C-D-E-F-G-A-B]= Natural Major Scale or Ionian Mode.
[D-E-F-G-A-B-C]= Dorian Mode.
By making the inversion shown above, you would be playing a " D Dorian",
If you change the tonic to the third degree {E} you get the Phrygian Mode.

Now, there is nothing wrong in playing a "D Dorian" or an "E Phrygian" over a
"C Major Chord".
But you get the best of the modal sound, when you play a chord built on the root of the mode.
Example:
D Dorian=.......[D-E-F-G-A-B-C]
D Minor Chord=[D-F-A]
Dm7 Chord=....[D-F-A-C].
To get the flavor of the Dorian Mode, play the mentioned mode over a "D minor Chord" or better yet; a "Dm7 Chord"

But wouldn't flattening the 3rd make the entire key minor.

In order to change the major scale to a minor scale, you need to flat the third degree, the sixth degree and the seventh degree.

Heres what im not understanding.

The tonal steps define the scale. If you change those then the scale changes. But you can change the modal steps of the scale without changing the scale itself.

But if you flatten the 3rd (a modal step,) then the scale does change to a minor scale. It would have to be because the 1st triad of the scale is now of a minor tonality. Doesn't flattening the 3rd also make the 5th triad a minor chord too?

what the hell is up with this.

Originally Posted by: HambergHeres what im not understanding.

The tonal steps define the scale. If you change those then the scale changes. But you can change the modal steps of the scale without changing the scale itself.

But if you flatten the 3rd (a modal step,) then the scale does change to a minor scale. It would have to be because the 1st triad of the scale is now of a minor tonality. Doesn't flattening the 3rd also make the 5th triad a minor chord too?

what the hell is up with this.

what u are talking about is correct.. but u can use modes in a way that utilizes the triad without changing tonality of the triad. by this I mean if u are in the key of C u have C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C then moving onto the second degree u would start on the D which would give u D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D (this is the dorian mode) what u are basicaly doing is using the same notes but starting from a different position of the scale.. and this is true when u get to the 6th degree the Aiolion mode (minor) u start on A so u get A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A giving u a minor tonality over a major chord but still keeping the same notes and not flattening the 3rd and so on..

But my question is more about flattening the interval, and intervals in general. Why does it effects the scale like this; when from my understanding it shouldnt. Im not ready to learn about modes themselves yet.

Originally Posted by: HambergBut my question is more about flattening the interval, and intervals in general. Why does it effects the scale like this; when from my understanding it shouldnt. Im not ready to learn about modes themselves yet.

Any interval change u do to a scale will change it.. what ur doing is bringing intervals closer togeter so the scale has to change, so the tonality of the mode will change and the same for moving intervals apart the scale will change..

The tonal steps define the scale

What defines the scale is the combination of Intervals.

If you change those then the scale changes.

If you change the intervals the scale changes.

But you can change the modal steps of the scale without changing the scale itself.

I don`t understand what you mean when you say "tonal steps" and "modal steps".
Half-steps are "semi-tones" or from one fret to the next fret on the guitar.
Whole steps are "tones" or two frets apart.
And that is the same for the main scale or its modes.

But if you flatten the 3rd (a modal step,) then the scale does change to a minor scale

If you flatten the 3rd of the Major Scale, you get minor third. Becouse the major scale has a major third; and everytime you flatten any major interval you get a minor interval.

The biggest mistake people make, is to play modes and keep thinking in the major scale.
You see, every mode is an individual Key in itself. Just like when you play a "natural minor scale" which is the sixth mode of the Major Scale (Aeolian Mode).You know that you are playing a minor key.
In the same way a Dorian Mode is a minor key, and so is the Phygian Mode,
Here are the tonalities of each mode:
Ionian........Major
Dorian........Minor
Phrygian.....Minor
Lydian........Major
Mixolydian...Major
Aeolian.......Minor
Locrian.......Diminished

Originally Posted by: equatorWhat defines the scale is the combination of Intervals.

If you change the intervals the scale changes.

I don`t understand what you mean when you say "tonal steps" and "modal steps".
Half-steps are "semi-tones" or from one fret to the next fret on the guitar.
Whole steps are "tones" or two frets apart.
And that is the same for the main scale or its modes.

If you flatten the 3rd of the Major Scale, you get minor third. Becouse the major scale has a major third; and everytime you flatten any major interval you get a minor interval.

The biggest mistake people do, is to play modes and keep thinking in the major scale.
You see, every mode is an individual Key in itself. Just like when you play a "natural minor scale" wich is the sixth mode of the Major Scale (Aeolian Mode).You know that is a minor key.
In the same way a Dorian Mode is a minor key, and so is the Phygian Mode,
Here are the tonalities of each mode:
Ionian........Major
Dorian........Minor
Phrygian.....Minor
Lydian........Major
Mixolydian...Major
Aeolian.......Minor
Locrian.......Diminished

yea u said it better than me i was just awake when i answered back this am so ty and u are right in eevrything u say :D