God does exist

Originally Posted by: hunter60...For example, alternative lifestyles. The church says no way. But you know what Jesus said about it?

Nothing. Not a single word.

So why then does the church take the position that people who practice this lifestyle are doomed and can never be loved by God? It makes no sense to me. And there are hundreds of other issues like this...

One major aspect of Jesus was the theme of forgiveness. Religoious dogma, such as Moasic law, was simply black and white, about retribution and punishment. An eye for an eye. You know the story of the woman who was brought to Jesus coz she'd been caught red handed in the act of adultery. According to mosaic law, she was to be stoned. The eye for the eye. But what did Jesus do? He told them that he who has not sinned to cast the first stone. And when no one did and they all went away, he told her to go away and not to sin again.

That's what our churches don't see. They are just into practices and forms and code and what have you, but they're nothing like what jesus taught. Another example from the story of my mother. Our church refused to officiate at her funeral ceremony, guess for what? Brace yourself; she wasn't eating holy communion in the run up to her death. WTF is that?!?! :confused: Even if you weren't that familiar with the bible and all, what the hell has holy communion got to do with the things that God cares about, such as sin and righteousness? Churches are ****ed up like that.
That's why there are so many of them today. How can such a magnitude of groupings all come and claim th be based on the same book, the bible? The fact is they're not, they're just bunches of people who only want to see things from their own perspective and nothing else will do for them. Closed minds, that's what they are.

Originally Posted by: HammurabiThe possibility that invisible unicorns are shagging behind me cannot be disproven scientifically, but it would be pretty retarded of me to believe that such a thing is happening without evidence.

Where is the evidence of god?

Invisible unicorns shagging behind you is one thing.
Not having teeth lining up your arse is quite another.
The former is just a line you came up with.
The latter, on the other hand, is a manifestation of just how brilliant the process of life is. The blue print I mentioned earlier. The existence of such a process makes one wonder about where it came from and how it came about, and not being able to explain it, one of the possibilities that are put forth is that of an intelligent force unbeknown to us.
You are right, it would be retarded to believe that invisible unicorns were shagging behind you without evidence. Quite retarded, when you think about it. But to think that the reason your arse is not lined with teeth is because that's how God made you, and you don't have any evidence of that making, that is not as retarded.
As a matter of fact, the more knowledgable scientists become, the more the scientific probability that some god exists increases.

Originally Posted by: HammurabiThey shouldn't, but they are and always have been.



You could, but the logical burden of proof is on christianity.[/quote]
Nope.
A lot of indegenous peoples all over the world believed in some god or other and worshipped the same long before christianity itself existed. Theres loads of evidence of that.

Originally Posted by: Hammurabi...For example, if jesus existed and performed miracles then there would clearly be historical proof of it...

Not necessarily.
Events taking place is one thing. Events being suitably chronicled and archived is another thing. The lack of the latter does not sufficiently exclude the former
[quote=Hammurabi]One could also make the claim that christianity's sources are a joke.

My friend, Christianity is one thing. The existence of God is another thing all together. Christianity is simply an amalgam of practices and traditions practiced by humanity. The existense of God is totally removed from the preactice of christianity. Christianity may well be a joke. That has nothing to do with the idea of God being a joke. Like I said, many peoples around the world worshipped some god or other [u]long before[/u] christianity reached their part of the world.

Originally Posted by: Hammurabi

Originally Posted by: RaskolnikovWhere did I say that it would?[/QUOTE]When you said it was evidence of god rather than simply suggestive of an undetermined influence that may or may not even be spiritual in nature.[/quote]1. I put "God" in quotes for a reason. You are operating on the assumption that I suscribe to or am arguing this from the perspective of a known, established world religion -- I am not. I am merely pointing out that recently discovered Scientific evidence supports the general concept of "God" rather than arguing against it.

2. Listen to yourself -- "an undetermined influence" -- in a naturally chaotic universe, what alternate hypothesis do you propose to explain what order arises?

Originally Posted by: Hammurabi[QUOTE=Raskolnikov]Some scientists are theorizing that this means our universe could have been created as an experiment by scientists in another universe. It turns out, it wouldn't take much energy to set the parameters of and then create this universe.

What interests me most about that theory is the thought of how one could monitor the results of such an experiment.

200 years ago, the concept of an electron microscope or X-Ray or Radio telescopes would have been considered totally asinine.



[QUOTE=kingdavid]The latter, on the other hand, is a manifestation of just how brilliant the process of life is. The blue print I mentioned earlier. The existence of such a process makes one wonder about where it came from and how it came about, and not being able to explain it, one of the possibilities that are put forth is that of an intelligent force unbeknown to us.

Actually, that's all a very natural and predictable biproduct of Carbon Chemistry.

Originally Posted by: kingdavidThat's why there are so many of them today. How can such a magnitude of groupings all come and claim th be based on the same book, the bible? The fact is they're not, they're just bunches of people who only want to see things from their own perspective and nothing else will do for them. Closed minds, that's what they are.

Not all churches are so closed-minded and heretical.

Originally Posted by: kingdavidAnd I'm sure God would want me to do as he says not because I'm afraid of him, but because I realise and accept it's the right thing.

That's pretty much the only reason I would worship any religious deity. But it just doesn't feel right to me to do so. Whenever I tell someone I believe in God, I feel like I"m full of ****. And I feel exactly the same when I say I don't. When I plead agnostic however, I feel better. Not necessarily good, but better than I do about any of the others.

Originally Posted by: HammurabiThey shouldn't, but they are and always have been.



You could, but the logical burden of proof is on christianity. Even if it were on me it's easy to make an argument from a lack of evidence. For example, if jesus existed and performed miracles then there would clearly be historical proof of it. However, there are no even halfway reliable sources supporting that any such man ever existed except one that very clearly contradicts the bible as to when he would have lived. Therefore the assertion that Jesus never existed is a reasonable claim. If jesus never lived then the bible is at severe fault and there is no basis for christianity except tradition, which isn't convincing.

One could also make the claim that christianity's sources are a joke. For example, look at early Judaism (christianity's daddy). Anyone who has ever studied Chaldean mythology can tell you the entire first part of Genesis (Eden, man from dust, the great flood, etc) was popular mythology as early as two thousand years before the torah was written. In other words, the very foundation of the modern belief in god was stolen from other religions. Satan wasn't even originally in judaism or christianity, he was the Persian god Shaitan (literally translates to 'adversary'), which was basically a knockoff of Egypt's god Set/h. The character Jesus is also nothing more than a knockoff of several similar dieties. Look up Attis of Phrygia, Dionysus/Bacchus, Krishna, Zoroaster/Zarathustra, and Mithra.

First of all, if you do research, the Bible is chronologically and historically accurate, It has specific geneology that spans for hundreds of years, which match with historians own research, signs of the great flood are everywhere, but some scientists are saying that Pangea, a super continent, is the reason for all of the fossils found around the world by the same species. For unexplained happenings in this world, we as humans try to find logic where there is none, just faith. By the way, hundreds of documented witnesses saw Jesus after he died, it only takes two in todays world to convict someone to death. The devil was in the beginning of christianity because he convinced eve to eat the apple from the forbidden tree of knowledge because he told them they would be "like God". That is why there is a hell, Lucifer, the devil, was an angel but wanted to be better and more powerful than God and God sent him to reign in his own "kingdom", hell, seeming powerful now, but destined to fall in the end to Gods power. My point is that Christianity in not a knock off of anything, branched off yes, and it has been branched off of yes, but not a knock off of anything. To the proof of a God, you must believe personally and I know I can't make anyone do that, but that is what it takes and then things will start to make a little more sense in this world. Thanks to anyone who read all this lol :)

Originally Posted by: Danny C.The devil was in the beginning of christianity because he convinced eve to eat the apple from the forbidden tree of knowledge because he told them they would be "like God". That is why there is a hell, Lucifer, the devil, was an angel but wanted to be better and more powerful than God and God sent him to reign in his own "kingdom", hell, seeming powerful now, but destined to fall in the end to Gods power.

Not all Christian sects believe this, I'll remind you.

Originally Posted by: 6strngs_2hmbkrs... and I know we've had a few religious arguments on here, and I don't really intend to start another one...

Still going... :)

Originally Posted by: Danny C.First of all, if you do research, the Bible is chronologically and historically accurate,

I have done research. The bible is not entirely historically accurate. The new testament is much more accurate than the old thanks to Luke, but I would expect the word of god to not have any mistakes.

For example, Clicky. There's no historical evidence that the united kingdom of David and Solomon ever even existed. The bible claims that their empire stretched "from the Euphrates to Egypt". It's simply not possible for an empire that size to exist without leaving [u]any[/u] evidence of its existence.

However, even if the bible were largely historically accurate that would lend no support to the truth of its spiritual claims. It takes no divine influence for men to simply write down what is going on around them in the world.

It has specific geneology that spans for hundreds of years, which match with historians own research,

First off, you've got to be joking. The bible doesn't even agree with itself on the genealogy.

Secondly, stop trying to bullsh*t me. You know, or should know, that there's no way to historically verify anything except a few key points of the genealogy (which hasn't been done), and definitely nothing before moses. Furthermore the most important part of the genealogy has been historically proven to be in contrast with what the bible says. Know who David actually was? The real historical genealogy shows that he wasn't a Jewish king but rather an Egyptian pharaoh. His name was actually Psusennes II, which was translated to 'David' much later. That argues against the truth of the bible's entire genealogy before david because there's no way for his family to both have been Egyptian royalty and Jewish.

Family of David / Psusennes
---------------------------
Ram / Ramesses
Amminnaddab / Amen-Nesbanebdjed
Nashon / Amenemneshu
Salmon / Siamun
Boas / Bas-Uasorkon
Obed / Amenemopet
Jesse / Harsiese
(David/Psusennes)


Furthermore, even if the bible did have a single cohesive genealogy that real history didn't argue against, so what? It would still only be possible to historically verify the life of a few key people in it and it still wouldn't prove anything. Welsh genealogies exist that trace all the way back to the kings of Troy, does that mean any of their myths are true? Nope. It takes no divine influence for a man to be able to write down who his parents and son are. Either way how well something agrees with itself is no evidence of its accuracy.

signs of the great flood are everywhere, but some scientists are saying that Pangea, a super continent, is the reason for all of the fossils found around the world by the same species.

There you go again, trying to bullsh*t me. Do you think I'm retarded or something? There is no real evidence of a global flood while there are a rediculous number of severe problems with the story.

That's another stolen part of your religion from Sumeria, btw. It wasn't Noah's flood, it was Ziusudra's.

For unexplained happenings in this world, we as humans try to find logic where there is none, just faith.

What unexplained happenings? Are you going to try proving the holy spirit to me now? I've been a member of four pentacostal churches in my life and I've never seen anything except massive loads of pathetic bullsh*t.

By the way, hundreds of documented witnesses saw Jesus after he died, it only takes two in todays world to convict someone to death.

Stop trying to bullsh*t me. There is no reliable evidence of any such thing. There isn't even any even halfway reliable evidence that Jesus ever existed except for one source that directly contradicts the bible.

The devil was in the beginning of christianity because he convinced eve to eat the apple from the forbidden tree of knowledge because he told them they would be "like God".

The serpent was the devil, you say? That's funny, because Judaism didn't even believe in a devil figure or angels until it 'borrowed' those beliefs from Zoroastrianism.

Where do you suppose the serpent came from? It was, like its garden home, just another stolen belief from Sumerian mythology. The serpent was actually named Nin-Gish-Zida in case you were wondering.

That is why there is a hell, Lucifer, the devil, was an angel but wanted to be better and more powerful than God and God sent him to reign in his own "kingdom", hell, seeming powerful now, but destined to fall in the end to Gods power.

Lucifer? Lucem Ferre? Lucifer wasn't even equated with the devil until Jerome and Milton (who were both mistaken). The ony time the name Lucifer is mentioned in the bible is in reference to a Babylonian king. The story of the fallen angel waging war with god was fabricated long after the birth of Judaism. As I mentioned earlier the belief in angels isn't even originally from Judaism. I fail to see how you hope to make a convincing argument by pointing out yet another one of christianity's many mistakes.

My point is that Christianity in not a knock off of anything, branched off yes, and it has been branched off of yes, but not a knock off of anything.

Branched? It's a pathetic knockoff of the very religions it's gone out of its way to exterminate. You haven't made a single valid point.

To the proof of a God, you must believe personally and I know I can't make anyone do that, but that is what it takes and then things will start to make a little more sense in this world. Thanks to anyone who read all this lol :)

...so the proof that god exists is dependent on a belief in god? That's circular logic. I have no use for such tripe.

I was a solid christian until pretty close to my ninteenth birthday. I spent a full semester researching history and science trying to prove to myself that the bible and modern christianity agreed with them. They don't. Don't give me that "you just have to believe" horsesh*t.

:rolleyes:

I'm 100% positive of God... things I've felt and seen in my life just prove it to me. seriously, there was this one time several years ago... it was at church camp, and we were singing and worshipping... and the presence of God was so strong, that everyone in the room just broke down and cried. there was nothing else you could do, it was that overwhelming... sure half the room was jr. high girls who cry when they see a fly... but there were some guys in there that were the toughest guys you could find, including a former body builder who was once mr. california. and he was crying too... it was just so powerful, and I can't really describe the feeling...

so, though the christian religion may be a little bit wack, and I don't agree with parts of it myself, I definately believe in God, I believe everything happens for a reason, I believe that good can come out of a bad situation, and I believe there is a purpose for everyone. well, sorry, I was trying not to involve myself in this argument (even though I started it ;) ) but there's my two cents... (geez, if everyone keeps putting in their two cents, I'll be a millionaire soon!)

also, there are historical records in egypt that seem to match up with the moses story in the bible...

Originally Posted by: 6strngs_2hmbkrsit was at church camp, and we were singing and worshipping... and the presence of God was so strong, that everyone in the room just broke down and cried. there was nothing else you could do, it was that overwhelming... sure half the room was jr. high girls who cry when they see a fly... but there were some guys in there that were the toughest guys you could find, including a former body builder who was once mr. california. and he was crying too... it was just so powerful, and I can't really describe the feeling...

Mr California is also a girl... :D

I almost died laughing yesterday when I asked a guy at work (who is a very committed Christian) whether he believed in things like the hypothetical blind quadriplegic guy who gets touched by one of those cheesy minsters (JEEEESUS!) and starts running around screaming 'I can see!'. :eek:

Seriously, I have no problem with people's beliefs, but the theatre end of it (and the fact people believe it) I find a little disturbing...

My belief is that in situations as described above, the overwhelming feeling is generated by the weight of feeling at a group level, no necessarily the presence of 'God'. I almost cried hearing the Floyd play comfortably numb at live 8 - partially because they're great, and partially because you could see everyone there being moved by it....

It's still cool to get a buzz from a power and depth of feeling, but whether it's God? I have my doubts...

The Opium of the people..... as a hairy man once said...

Originally Posted by: 6strngs_2hmbkrsalso, there are historical records in egypt that seem to match up with the moses story in the bible...

This is an interesting subject. According the the bible Moses was in Egypt during the 18th dynasty. Because there are no other sources that mention him we'll assume that, if such a man lived, he lived when the bible says he did. Unfortunately for you, there are no records from this dynasty of any such disaster as the plagues.

There is only one Egyptian record that tells of anything like any part of the story of moses. It's the Ipuwer papyrus, which describes an event like the nile turning to blood. It's quite an interesting read. Unfortunately for you it was written close to or during the Hyksos invasion which ended the 13th dynasty. That means it was written around 1670.

You do see the problem, don't you? If the exodus happened around 1450 like the bible says it did then the story of the nile turning to blood was already at least 220 years old. That means it's just another stolen myth.

Edit: Date corrected by 30 years, strengthening my point.

http://www.christiananswers.net/archaeology/home.html

this may help with clearing up the historical accuracy of the bible some

Originally Posted by: 6strngs_2hmbkrsbut there were some guys in there that were the toughest guys you could find, including a former body builder who was once mr. california. and he was crying too...

It takes a big man to cry...and an even bigger man to laugh at that man!

(I said that with my tongue firmly in my cheek in case someone thinks I am seriously some macho wanker)

All I can say to all that is you did your research and all makes sense in your point of view. I never meant to make myself out as a historian or anything like that because I can barely pass my high school history classes. I just know where I stand and what I believe in which is everyones right. Everything seems to contradict everything and I guess it depends on where you look, or what you could consider accurate. So yeah, I am a bad person to be arguing about something that I dont completely understand myself. However if I did I am sure I can come up with some convincing arguements to all of that. But my firm beliefs will pay off in the end. And I dont believe any of that dumb healing where they smack your forehead. All that is nonsense, reminds me of the movie "Fletch Lives" with Chevy chase where he acts like a healer, its all in your head.

I'll give you proof that God exists.




Just after your last breath and last heartbeat you'll know for sure.

Originally Posted by: t_shirtsnjeansI'll give you proof that God exists. Just after your last breath and last heartbeat you'll know for sure.

Statements like that make me respect christianity even less.

If your only support for your religion is an argument by fear that should worry you a lot.