On modes... so what are they for?!

I've been playing guitar since I was 12 years old. Always trying to improve, I kept learning theory. Since then, there was something that i NEVER learned: modes.

What's the big deal about them ? .

while improvising i'm thinking (a monologue following) A Chord .. hmmm.. maybe a little sweep , some 5/7 - 5 to 8 moves... hmmm .... A Chord ... (is this in A-major scale?, it could be in D Major too... I'll wait for the next chord to check....) ... ok it's in A-major scale... so I picture : A B #C D E #F #G A ... play any of those notes .. but not 2nds r 7ths!!! it'll sound crappy... hmmm .. some licks, some s/7...

All right I know that's not really what you must be thinking, it's different for me too.. but sometimes I'm like that... picturing what to do... and when i'm like that... should I be thinking "modes"?

What modes are for me is this:

(let's remember them: Jonic - Dorian - Phrygian - Lydian - Mixolydian - Aeolian - Locrian)

I have (for example) a C-Major Scale :

C D E F G A B C
e ------0-1-3-5-7-8--
B --1-3----------------

If i would want to just start that run not 2ndString-1stFret (C), but to start it in D, I would play:

D E F G A B C D
e ------0-1-3-5-7-8-10-
B ----3----------------

And that's D Dorian!! (2nd Note, 2nd mode)

A-Major (Jonian) Scale:

A B #C D E #F #G A
e --------0-2-4-5-----
B ----0-2--------------
G --2
And if I would want to play it starting from #C :
e -----0-2-4-5-7-9---
B ----2--------------
G -

And that's #C Phrygian (3rd Note from A Scale... 3rd mode for #C)! so easy!

My question is:

Are modes just intended to classify scales??
are they just for saying "Oh, yeah that's just a run in A-Phrygian mode" or.. "Oh, that songs starts with DMaj Chord, but uses CMaj and FMaj chords... it must be in D Dorian mode i'm so cool I sound smart"

When a song starts for example in F major .. I think... allright, in F-major scale. but then the Bdim sounds instead of the BdMaj... I won't start saying oh I think it's F Lydian .. I'll just say.. It's in C Major!! .. right???

Other example:

-1------------5-7-8- <-- is that in D Dorian????
-3-----5-6-8------- it's in C Maj... come on!
-2-/-7----------------
-0---------------------

so... concluding... knowing modes CAN improve your playing? isn't just the same that knowing all of the Major and Minor scales?

If i'm jamming with another guitarrist and he says now change to D dorian! should I think "Oh.. C major scale... all right let's jam!" or knowing the modes will make a difference and I should consider them?

No,no, no. First of all, modes are rele simple, i think its just the fact that they have funny names that make it sound rele difficult. Modes are just like priamry colors. Except, applying that to music, they are the basic scales on which other scales are based. The Major scale is the Ionian mode. The Minor scale is Aeolian. Each mode has its own feel, by searching on this forums site you can find a few sites that give u the fingerings for these modes, so you can kinda see for yourself what im talking about. Each of these modes has a root note. The root note is the first note in the mode, and all the modes start on the low E string. And by moving up or down the fretboard, you can change the key of the modes. For example, D Dorian(the reason why everyone refers to modes by certain keys is because certain modal keys have no sharps or flats) moved down 2 frets would be C Dorian. If you dont understand, you can look at the lessons. The modal system is really simple like i said, and it seems rele difficult to understand, but itll come to you.

It all boils down to the root note. You can play the c major scale, but if you use E as your root note, you have E phrygian. Your asking whats the difference? It's the root note, the root note is the primary note in whatever you play. You'll usually start there, repetitively go back to it, or end there. Each of the modes give a different color to the music, this color is called phrasing.

So if your friend is playing a D minor chord and he says play D dorian. If you think of C major your phrasing will be off. Although it's the same notes, you find C, as a root, doesn't mesh good over a D chord.

This is why if you look in Jazz Improv books, they'll give you chords. maybe all in one key, but under each chord they're ask to play the mode that goes with that chord. this is because of phrasing. And good jazz soloing depends on it.

Try this if you can.

Record yourself playing a rhythm with a D minor chord. Play it back and play scale runs in C major. Next try it with D dorian? Which sounds better?

I think i was wrong... but not on that, but on the concept of "scale"
scale, for you, means a progression of notes, right? the d-dorian scale, is, unmistakeably (sorry my english) D E F G A B C D. And that ISN'T the c-major scale.

i'm talking about the overall scale, not the progression of the notes... hmm (thinking how to explain it)

If we have a D minor chord, then i won't make an E to E run of notes, cause it'l sound like crap (yeah yeah.. it depends on what music i'm playing) but mostly i'll try to play D or A or F to start... not E.

but when i was talking of scale, i wasn't speaking of that... i meant like....the OVERALL scale of the song... don't know if i'm explaining myself
not like a progression with a start and an ending, but a group of notes ... from which i chose the notes i want to play and stay diatonic

think of a plastic bag, called "C Major" that contains C, D, E, F, G, A, B, and C
If i wanted to improvise on top of a D minor chord, i would stick my hand in it and get some notes... maybe D to start... some sweeps ... shuffles .. just solo.. but those notes would still belong to "C Major", not mattering in which i'd start soloing ...
If the scale was D dorian and i had the "d dorian" bag, then those notes in it would be the same as the "c major" bag... right? that's what i ment

sorry about that ,. but my english doesn't go as far as i would like and i have to make stupid pictures :o

i think ... perhaps i am confusing the word "scale" between two meanings:

- A progression of notes, with a first, and a last note played in some period of time

- The tone that a song has and , all the notes inside follow .... you know, modulating to other tones, and allthat



or maybe... "mode" is to only for reffering to the order of the notes of a progression or -scale nomber one- .... not to the overall tone of ALL the song?


(only big threads here) ;)

Yeah they are the same notes, C major and D Dorian. Although in practical application, they are different and they do have a different tone. It's no more apparent than playing a song in the key of C major, and then playing one in the key of A (natural) minor. Those two scales have the same notes but when you use either one they sound quite different. It's all in how you use them, chord progressions and/or melody. By knowing the difference it's opens up alot to your music and your technique as a player.

Think of it as, the root note is a color and the scale you use is the shade of that color. There is only one C note as there is only one Red color, but there are many shades of red, as they're are many different scales (or modes). You are right they are the same notes, but I would suggest looking into modes. Modes have alot of great uses, and to get them you have to also be able to look at them as being different.

i think i'm getting the picture
you're right.. it's not the same when you play something in c maj, than when you do it in a minor...

know any good texts teaching modes in a more intuitive way?

From reading your initial post,I think you had the picture all along...well pretty much, just a few misunderstandings due to languange

You've already taken the first step and you seem to have a knowledge of modes. All you have to do now is apply them.

Practice writting melodies and riffs in the different modes. It's just like writting in the major scale although you use the modes instead. Here's an easy way to think of it.

The difference between modes and the major and minor scales is simple. Take C major, which has the notes C D E F G A B C. Now take C mixolydian and you get C D E F G A Bb. Only one note changed, the 7th. So now just think of C major, but if you the 7th (B), play it down a step.

Each mode except one is closely related to either the major or minor scale, with one alteration. Learning this alteration is a quick way to learn them.

Major modes - Ionian (major scale), lydian, and mixolydian
Minor modes - dorian, phrygian, and Aeolian (natural minor)

Locrian is diminished.

This is easy to see if you know the harmonic sequence of a major scale, and which mode goes with which chord.

Here's the major harmonic chord (in roman numerals[ small letters are minor, capital letters are major]).

I ii iii IV V vi viio (viio is diminished)

Once you get an idea with writting melodies in the modes, go for this.

Write some chord progression in a major scale. and instead of thinking of just using the major scale, use the appriate mode over each chord.

Ex. say your in C major and you have this progression.

| C . . . | F . . . | C . . . | G . . . |

Instead of thinking C major over the entire progression as you solo or build a melody. Use your modes. C major scale over the C chord, F lydian over the F chord, and G mixolydian over the G chord.

Once you get used to that, pick up a Jazz impro book or jazz lead sheet book and apply the same thing. You'll be doing the same thing, but on a deeper level.

This is because Jazz uses alot of modal modulation. This combines the two things I just wrote about, and what you already preceived when you first wrote this post.

Modal modulation is changing the mode for each chord. Remember I said there are three modes that are relative to each the major and minor scale. So if you have a chord like F major, you could use 3 different mods over that chord, Ionian(major scale), lydian, and mixolydian. Regardless of it's function in the key of the song.

F major in the key of C major is the IV chord, or lydian. However you can use the major scale (ionian), or the mixolydian mode over that chord. Here's what you got before.

Say you use the F mixolydian over the F chord in the key of C major. F mixolydian has the same notes as the key of Bb major. So while you use the F mixolydian you are changing keys, hence modulation by the use of modes.

Interesting, eh?

As you can see modes will take you pretty far and open you up alot to tons of possibilities. Modal improvistion is pretty cool because it makes for interesting phrasing.

Now the reason I didn't give you a text on modes, is because reading about it alone won't help you. Learning music is about application, you have to apply what you just read to fully get it. Have fun! :)

woowwwww
i finally got it!
now when i'm soloying, its a total different thing!!

i was just looking that for my improvisation ! you know? that "accidental" note ... all that always-diatonic themes sound bad to me

can you think of any cool theme that does that??

thanks!!