Simons first gt song

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Joined: 07/06/02

Posts: 5021

Id love to know what everyone thinks of this! This is my fist time so, please be gentle with me!!

http://www.trinkit.net/Newmoon.mp3

http://www.trinkit.net/Dreaming.mp3



[Edited by Dr_simon on 02-15-2003 at 07:26 PM]
My instructors page and www.studiotrax.net for all things recording.
my toons Brought to you by Dr BadGAS

#1

Id love to know what everyone thinks of this! This is my fist time so, please be gentle with me!!

http://www.trinkit.net/Newmoon.mp3

http://www.trinkit.net/Dreaming.mp3



[Edited by Dr_simon on 02-15-2003 at 07:26 PM]
My instructors page and www.studiotrax.net for all things recording.
my toons Brought to you by Dr BadGAS

Full Access

Joined: 08/02/02

Posts: 1329

I didn't like Newmoon as much. "dreaming" I really like that one. I like the singer, I think the lyrics are good, and the singing with the backup singing goes well. The riffs are cool too. Very good song.
Electric Guitars are the inspiration for cries of "Turn that damn thing down"-Gibson website

#2

I didn't like Newmoon as much. "dreaming" I really like that one. I like the singer, I think the lyrics are good, and the singing with the backup singing goes well. The riffs are cool too. Very good song.
Electric Guitars are the inspiration for cries of "Turn that damn thing down"-Gibson website

Gear Guru

Joined: 01/18/01

Posts: 6242

I find the overall sound of "Newmoon" a bit busy, but that's due to a qualitative predilection on my part. And most of the music I hear these days has that updated 'wall of sound' thing going on. I really enjoyed the fact that the lyrics can be heard, particularly in "Dreaming". As far as the recording goes, if I heard either song on the radio, I wouldn't question that it was done in a pro studio!

P.S. I do like the new, improved sign-off! Smilie
Lordathestrings
Guitar Tricks Moderator

www.GuitarTricks.com - Home of Online Guitar Lessons

#3

I find the overall sound of "Newmoon" a bit busy, but that's due to a qualitative predilection on my part. And most of the music I hear these days has that updated 'wall of sound' thing going on. I really enjoyed the fact that the lyrics can be heard, particularly in "Dreaming". As far as the recording goes, if I heard either song on the radio, I wouldn't question that it was done in a pro studio!

P.S. I do like the new, improved sign-off! Smilie
Lordathestrings
Guitar Tricks Moderator

www.GuitarTricks.com - Home of Online Guitar Lessons

Crime Fighter

Joined: 08/04/02

Posts: 1518

I think it was a very good production and song. I listened to dreaming and I thought it was really cool. Smilie

Trendkilla does have a good point though, the drums and bass may be pushed alittle too far back. I can see that's the effect you were going for. The bass and the main vocals are all centered in the mix. Which is almost necassary for a good mix, except maybe the Beatles. You also got the main guitar there too. Which is all kool too cause that's the mix you were going for, but the one big thing I think it was missing is. Everything else was either Far-left or Far-right. It was missing the mid points, which to me makes the over-all or full body spectrum of sound not fully used.

If I may make a suggestion. I would bring the snare and bass drum alittle closer to center. Id center the bass drum because it works better in the center. Since you got the guitar in the center, I wouldn't change that cause that's kool. I would move the snare alittle closer to center so it's in between the bass drum and hi-hat. This will dramatically improve the sense of the snare drum in the mix. Also, I would move the bass guitar alittle to the left so it's sort of mid left, this will give you more freedom of EQ between the bass drum, bass guitar, and guitar (sometimes a problem cause they have the same good frequency points). Since your going for sort of a left to right music (mix) flow, this will help that sense alittle more. Plus give each individual instrument alittle more room in the spectrum and close those mid gaps that are there now.

Also a second option, switching the bass guitar and bass drum would be kool too I think. Have the bass guitar in the center, and the bass drum mid left. This will produce an even more left to right mix impression. For the drum beat will move left to right, because the beat is bass then snare. So it would be mid-left to mid-right for the beat. I think that would be awesome.
"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.

#4

I think it was a very good production and song. I listened to dreaming and I thought it was really cool. Smilie

Trendkilla does have a good point though, the drums and bass may be pushed alittle too far back. I can see that's the effect you were going for. The bass and the main vocals are all centered in the mix. Which is almost necassary for a good mix, except maybe the Beatles. You also got the main guitar there too. Which is all kool too cause that's the mix you were going for, but the one big thing I think it was missing is. Everything else was either Far-left or Far-right. It was missing the mid points, which to me makes the over-all or full body spectrum of sound not fully used.

If I may make a suggestion. I would bring the snare and bass drum alittle closer to center. Id center the bass drum because it works better in the center. Since you got the guitar in the center, I wouldn't change that cause that's kool. I would move the snare alittle closer to center so it's in between the bass drum and hi-hat. This will dramatically improve the sense of the snare drum in the mix. Also, I would move the bass guitar alittle to the left so it's sort of mid left, this will give you more freedom of EQ between the bass drum, bass guitar, and guitar (sometimes a problem cause they have the same good frequency points). Since your going for sort of a left to right music (mix) flow, this will help that sense alittle more. Plus give each individual instrument alittle more room in the spectrum and close those mid gaps that are there now.

Also a second option, switching the bass guitar and bass drum would be kool too I think. Have the bass guitar in the center, and the bass drum mid left. This will produce an even more left to right mix impression. For the drum beat will move left to right, because the beat is bass then snare. So it would be mid-left to mid-right for the beat. I think that would be awesome.
"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.

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Joined: 07/06/02

Posts: 5021

Cool !

Thank you all, Lots of stuff I had never even thought of !!!

I did the drums on an electronic kit which is L and R into the recorder and I have had the devils own job getting enough kick and snare relative to the Hi-Hat however it looks like I need to get deeper into both drumming and how the electronic kit works so I can sort out a better spatial mix !

More time spent on bass also !

I was really happy to see that people liked the vocals. They have been double tracked and are in deep over-dub land (though each track was eventually done in one take). I thought they were the weakest part however I think I will move my focus over to tightening up the bass and drums!

Did you get what Newmoon was about... Its the book "The Hobbit". Thought that might appeal to Lordathestrings !

Thanks again
S
My instructors page and www.studiotrax.net for all things recording.
my toons Brought to you by Dr BadGAS

#5

Cool !

Thank you all, Lots of stuff I had never even thought of !!!

I did the drums on an electronic kit which is L and R into the recorder and I have had the devils own job getting enough kick and snare relative to the Hi-Hat however it looks like I need to get deeper into both drumming and how the electronic kit works so I can sort out a better spatial mix !

More time spent on bass also !

I was really happy to see that people liked the vocals. They have been double tracked and are in deep over-dub land (though each track was eventually done in one take). I thought they were the weakest part however I think I will move my focus over to tightening up the bass and drums!

Did you get what Newmoon was about... Its the book "The Hobbit". Thought that might appeal to Lordathestrings !

Thanks again
S
My instructors page and www.studiotrax.net for all things recording.
my toons Brought to you by Dr BadGAS

Crime Fighter

Joined: 08/04/02

Posts: 1518

Simon, I know what you mean man. Recording drums with only 2 tracks is a hefty task. I know cause I've been through the same thing, but you pulled it off very well I must say. Try this since this is your case.

First record a dummy drum track, so when you record the other instruments they have something to follow. Record everything else and get a nice EQ and mix, then record the drums again and do everything you need to do with them (EQ and Pan) to make them fit better with the other instruments. It's a rough job, but it will save you from the tedious work of leveling everything first. And then finding out it didn't work once you recorded everything else over the drums.

It's not the perfect solution, but in your case it should save you some time and also produce quicker and better results. I recommend recording each drum on a seperate track just so you have absolute control over everything when you do a final mix.

The vocals and guitar were really good. The low end on the bass was perfect, try adding alittle more EQ at around 800hz so you hear the notes(pitches) just alittle better. Also a very slight boost between 3-5k so you can hear the rhythm alittle better. Just stay away from 200hz, and actually if you can cut here 2 or 4 dec. This will bring out alittle more clarity on your low end.

I'm going to listen to "newmoon", I dig LOTR too.
"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.

#6

Simon, I know what you mean man. Recording drums with only 2 tracks is a hefty task. I know cause I've been through the same thing, but you pulled it off very well I must say. Try this since this is your case.

First record a dummy drum track, so when you record the other instruments they have something to follow. Record everything else and get a nice EQ and mix, then record the drums again and do everything you need to do with them (EQ and Pan) to make them fit better with the other instruments. It's a rough job, but it will save you from the tedious work of leveling everything first. And then finding out it didn't work once you recorded everything else over the drums.

It's not the perfect solution, but in your case it should save you some time and also produce quicker and better results. I recommend recording each drum on a seperate track just so you have absolute control over everything when you do a final mix.

The vocals and guitar were really good. The low end on the bass was perfect, try adding alittle more EQ at around 800hz so you hear the notes(pitches) just alittle better. Also a very slight boost between 3-5k so you can hear the rhythm alittle better. Just stay away from 200hz, and actually if you can cut here 2 or 4 dec. This will bring out alittle more clarity on your low end.

I'm going to listen to "newmoon", I dig LOTR too.
"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.

Guitar Tricks Instructor

Joined: 07/06/02

Posts: 5021

3-5 KHz was a problem in the mix and boosting it brought out much sibilance, even using a de-esser ! You can hear what I mean when listening to the double tracking on the main vocal, the esses at the end of sibilant phrases are at slightly different times (Dooooh !). In the future Im going to have a go at recording the vocals onto analogue tape rather than going straight to digital via a Tascam 424 Mk III which I can sync to the Korg. This should make the whole vocal thing a lot easier and will then allow me some more flexibility with the final mix. I will still check out your suggestions as Im still a little fuzzy on what sound maps to which frequency range and as ever all constructive advice is welcome !

Cheers Dude
S
My instructors page and www.studiotrax.net for all things recording.
my toons Brought to you by Dr BadGAS

#7

3-5 KHz was a problem in the mix and boosting it brought out much sibilance, even using a de-esser ! You can hear what I mean when listening to the double tracking on the main vocal, the esses at the end of sibilant phrases are at slightly different times (Dooooh !). In the future Im going to have a go at recording the vocals onto analogue tape rather than going straight to digital via a Tascam 424 Mk III which I can sync to the Korg. This should make the whole vocal thing a lot easier and will then allow me some more flexibility with the final mix. I will still check out your suggestions as Im still a little fuzzy on what sound maps to which frequency range and as ever all constructive advice is welcome !

Cheers Dude
S
My instructors page and www.studiotrax.net for all things recording.
my toons Brought to you by Dr BadGAS

Full Access

Joined: 08/02/02

Posts: 1329

So, for the vocals on "dreaming" its one person overdubbed? I think thats a cool effect. Once again very nice vocals and love the guitar.

I relistened to "newmoon", the vocals sound like a Blind Gaurdian song. I also noticed the vocals were not as strong as is "dreaming". The electric guitar seems to sound the same as in "dreaming", only in a few parts.

Either way, both songs are good.
Electric Guitars are the inspiration for cries of "Turn that damn thing down"-Gibson website

#8

So, for the vocals on "dreaming" its one person overdubbed? I think thats a cool effect. Once again very nice vocals and love the guitar.

I relistened to "newmoon", the vocals sound like a Blind Gaurdian song. I also noticed the vocals were not as strong as is "dreaming". The electric guitar seems to sound the same as in "dreaming", only in a few parts.

Either way, both songs are good.
Electric Guitars are the inspiration for cries of "Turn that damn thing down"-Gibson website

Crime Fighter

Joined: 08/04/02

Posts: 1518

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dr_simon
3-5 KHz was a problem in the mix and boosting it brought out much sibilance, even using a de-esser ! You can hear what I mean when listening to the double tracking on the main vocal, the esses at the end of sibilant phrases are at slightly different times (Dooooh !).[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. It's a tough range to work with, but if it is balanced correctly this range will give the music a sense of excitement. Too much and well you getting that horrible lispy sound as you said. You definitely want to boost this range for vocals, but slightly. I wouldn't boost it to max cause a lot of instruments need a treatment in this range. A good EQ mix is a good balance between the frequencies of all the instruments. You dont want to neglect a frequency anymore than you want to boost it too much. Definitely this frequency.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dr_simon
In the future Im going to have a go at recording the vocals onto analogue tape rather than going straight to digital via a Tascam 424 Mk III which I can sync to the Korg. [/QUOTE]

I don't know your situation all that well, but your vocal production is amazing. I actually meant to ask in my previous post some tips on how you got it sounding that good. But anyways, I'd check the quality your going to get from the analogue tape before switching. If too much quality is lost, I wouldn't do it; instead use it for less dominant instruments, like bass and maybe backing vocals.

I believe and I've read a lot that the vocals make the mix. If you get the vocals to sound great, everything else should just slide into place. My experience has showed me this is true. Actually when I do my final mix, the vocals are the first thing I do. Everything backs up the vocals anyways, so it sounds logical. Make vocals sound great, then make everything fit in with the vocals. A very good approach to mixing and most of the time its produces a great over-all mix.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dr_simon
I will still check out your suggestions as Im still a little fuzzy on what sound maps to which frequency range and as ever all constructive advice is welcome ![/QUOTE]

This primarily depends on the instruments. There is not a perfect spot for a certain sound, what there are is target frequencies. Which is a rough idea of what range to start with to bring out a certain quality in the instrument. Most of the time you will have to search around these frequencies to find the exact sound you are looking for.

30 - 100hz : these are the sub bass frequencies. The extreme low-end, around 60hz is the "woof" sound. I usually shelf the low end of the bass guitar here, and probably all the way up to around 150hz. All the low bass notes are in this range.

100hz - Very important frequency especially for the bass drum. This is where the pounding and the sense of pushing air is located. Boost the bass drum here to get the sense of the kick drum punching you in the chest. Also give a little boost (+2 or +4, usually never more than that)to the guitar here for added warmth if needed.

200hz - This is where the proximity effect range is located, too much here and it will sound muddy and dull. For more transparency cut here.

250-500hz - Great vocal range, adds low-end or warmth to the vocals. Dont boost here too much though cause its very close to the 200hz, you dont want muddiness when looking for warmth. You will also find the resonance of the drum heads and the body of an acoustic guitar around this area.

500-600hz - The body of the electric guitar, the clank of the hi-hat, and also great for toms if you dont use a lot of echo (reverb).

700-900hz - Great bass guitar frequency for it brings out the octave harmonics of the low notes. Making the bass line more distinguishable in pitch.

1-2khz - The BANG!! Awesome frequency for the snare. Boost here a bit but not too much for it can make the snare sound like hitting a cardboard tube. hehe

3khz - The excitement. Watch boosting here also as I said before. Gives the bass drum smack (mix well with 100hz to get an awesome bass drum sound.), Give boost to bass for more rhythm quality, give boost to guitar for more edge (be very careful with guitar in this range), adds excitement to vocals, adds power to toms, and bang of the crash cymbals.

5khz - Adds presence or brightness. Brings clarity to snare drum (boost for adding rhythm quality of the snare) another place to bring out the basses rhythmic qualities (great alternative for 3khz), sometimes vocals may need treatment here also.

7khz - Sibilants range. Stick hitting the toms, sibilants of the hi-hat, sometimes cut here a little on vocals to get rid of slushy vocals. Adds sparkle to the acoustic guitar.

10khz - Texture of the snare drum, splash or highs of the guitar, great for adding the sense of an acoustic environment to an acoustic guitar track.

10khz and above - predominantly the cymbals. Also to boost reverberation of a room and the sense of being surrounded by air.

Hope this helps.
"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.

#9

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dr_simon
3-5 KHz was a problem in the mix and boosting it brought out much sibilance, even using a de-esser ! You can hear what I mean when listening to the double tracking on the main vocal, the esses at the end of sibilant phrases are at slightly different times (Dooooh !).[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. It's a tough range to work with, but if it is balanced correctly this range will give the music a sense of excitement. Too much and well you getting that horrible lispy sound as you said. You definitely want to boost this range for vocals, but slightly. I wouldn't boost it to max cause a lot of instruments need a treatment in this range. A good EQ mix is a good balance between the frequencies of all the instruments. You dont want to neglect a frequency anymore than you want to boost it too much. Definitely this frequency.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dr_simon
In the future Im going to have a go at recording the vocals onto analogue tape rather than going straight to digital via a Tascam 424 Mk III which I can sync to the Korg. [/QUOTE]

I don't know your situation all that well, but your vocal production is amazing. I actually meant to ask in my previous post some tips on how you got it sounding that good. But anyways, I'd check the quality your going to get from the analogue tape before switching. If too much quality is lost, I wouldn't do it; instead use it for less dominant instruments, like bass and maybe backing vocals.

I believe and I've read a lot that the vocals make the mix. If you get the vocals to sound great, everything else should just slide into place. My experience has showed me this is true. Actually when I do my final mix, the vocals are the first thing I do. Everything backs up the vocals anyways, so it sounds logical. Make vocals sound great, then make everything fit in with the vocals. A very good approach to mixing and most of the time its produces a great over-all mix.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dr_simon
I will still check out your suggestions as Im still a little fuzzy on what sound maps to which frequency range and as ever all constructive advice is welcome ![/QUOTE]

This primarily depends on the instruments. There is not a perfect spot for a certain sound, what there are is target frequencies. Which is a rough idea of what range to start with to bring out a certain quality in the instrument. Most of the time you will have to search around these frequencies to find the exact sound you are looking for.

30 - 100hz : these are the sub bass frequencies. The extreme low-end, around 60hz is the "woof" sound. I usually shelf the low end of the bass guitar here, and probably all the way up to around 150hz. All the low bass notes are in this range.

100hz - Very important frequency especially for the bass drum. This is where the pounding and the sense of pushing air is located. Boost the bass drum here to get the sense of the kick drum punching you in the chest. Also give a little boost (+2 or +4, usually never more than that)to the guitar here for added warmth if needed.

200hz - This is where the proximity effect range is located, too much here and it will sound muddy and dull. For more transparency cut here.

250-500hz - Great vocal range, adds low-end or warmth to the vocals. Dont boost here too much though cause its very close to the 200hz, you dont want muddiness when looking for warmth. You will also find the resonance of the drum heads and the body of an acoustic guitar around this area.

500-600hz - The body of the electric guitar, the clank of the hi-hat, and also great for toms if you dont use a lot of echo (reverb).

700-900hz - Great bass guitar frequency for it brings out the octave harmonics of the low notes. Making the bass line more distinguishable in pitch.

1-2khz - The BANG!! Awesome frequency for the snare. Boost here a bit but not too much for it can make the snare sound like hitting a cardboard tube. hehe

3khz - The excitement. Watch boosting here also as I said before. Gives the bass drum smack (mix well with 100hz to get an awesome bass drum sound.), Give boost to bass for more rhythm quality, give boost to guitar for more edge (be very careful with guitar in this range), adds excitement to vocals, adds power to toms, and bang of the crash cymbals.

5khz - Adds presence or brightness. Brings clarity to snare drum (boost for adding rhythm quality of the snare) another place to bring out the basses rhythmic qualities (great alternative for 3khz), sometimes vocals may need treatment here also.

7khz - Sibilants range. Stick hitting the toms, sibilants of the hi-hat, sometimes cut here a little on vocals to get rid of slushy vocals. Adds sparkle to the acoustic guitar.

10khz - Texture of the snare drum, splash or highs of the guitar, great for adding the sense of an acoustic environment to an acoustic guitar track.

10khz and above - predominantly the cymbals. Also to boost reverberation of a room and the sense of being surrounded by air.

Hope this helps.
"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.

Gear Guru

Joined: 01/18/01

Posts: 6242

Kewl post! I think this new forum just 'hit one over the fence'! Big Grin
Lordathestrings
Guitar Tricks Moderator

www.GuitarTricks.com - Home of Online Guitar Lessons

#10

Kewl post! I think this new forum just 'hit one over the fence'! Big Grin
Lordathestrings
Guitar Tricks Moderator

www.GuitarTricks.com - Home of Online Guitar Lessons