Laminate guitar

I am playing a very old Fender F-35 all laminate acustic guitar. It has a very tiny sound to it. I took it to a guitar tech who did a basic setup, lowered the action and put on 11 guage Elixir phosphorus bronze strings. Easier to play but very little change to the sound. Is there any particular type/manufacturer/guage string that could improve the tone or is this just typical of all laminate guitars.

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None to my knowledge anyway. If after all that you had done to it and the sound is still not to your likeing I'm afraid thats about all you can do to an all laminate acoustic guitar,but you might want to ask Stephen White the online guitar tech here at GT and see if he has any suggestions.

The good news is there are a lot of high end guitar makers making solid top units in their Asian and Mexican outlets that are good quality and can be had for a resonable price. Breedlove, Ibanez, Alvarez and Yamaha to name a few. Even Martin and Taylor have some good low cost solid top options now.

Of course if you can up your budget then all solid wood is the way to go.

Good Luck with your decision.

Moe

Second mj's response

Originally Posted by: geary34

I am playing a very old Fender F-35 all laminate acustic guitar. It has a very tiny sound to it. I took it to a guitar tech who did a basic setup, lowered the action and put on 11 guage Elixir phosphorus bronze strings. Easier to play but very little change to the sound. Is there any particular type/manufacturer/guage string that could improve the tone or is this just typical of all laminate guitars.

Is that "tiny" sound as in small, thin, or a typo of 'tinny'?

If you meant tiny, going lighter gauge and coated strings will result in a reduction in projection and volume over heavier gauges on any acoustic guitar. 11s are a pretty light gauge on a Dreadnought, and so will sound comparatively 'thinner' over, e.g. 13s, as a rule. That said, Dreads if sounding a bit thin with the lighter gauge, because of their body size should still put out decent volume with adequate attack IME.[br][br]Which acoustic Elixirs did your "tech" fit in particular? [br][br]OK, we all have our different biases and predilections and OMMV, but from MPE I wouldn't fit Elixir Nano-nonsense coated strings to anything, electric or acoustic. My least 'loved' (that's a euphemisim for DETESTED) strings/brand. However Elixir manufacture whether it's their metallurgy or method, in conjunction with those Nano coatings it renders their strings dull sounding to my ear even when new, and so slippery to bend they feel like they have been sprayed with silicon! Worst of all they are so hard on the fingers, comparatively they feel like I'm fretting twisted steel towing cable! Just ugh! Elixir Nanos come fitted OEM factory default on Revstars, and they are the only thing I change or would ever want to about those guitars.[br][br]If I might suggest? Try a set of uncoated D'Addario EJ16 12s or EJ17 13s in conjunction with a heavier pick e.g. Dunlop nylon 1.2 or Jazz III 1.38 plus more attack and the result should come closer to meeting with your prominent volume expectation. Perhaps even a set of EJ13s and see how they work out if you can't abide the heavier gauges. [br][br]To my ears all else remaining equal a solid wood top (soundboard) is more about tone than outright volume assuming the laminate spruce top is all spruce but merely multi-layered. The exception obvious to my ears that I have experienced is anything with fibreboard/chipboard in the body will sound dead regardless what you do with it. Yes, they actually make cheapo guitars with this stuff, but they'll ordinarily be covered in paint whether black or a sunburst. And no, TMK (?) the Fender F-35 wasn't manufactured with that stuff.[br][br]FWIW I have a laminated spruce top Dread, (D'Addario EJ16 12s fitted) and there's absolutely nothing "tiny" about either its volume or projection. Tone is most pleasing too, but inarguably it wouldn't win a tone contest vs a $2000+ solid wood guitar with a prestige label, nor would I expect it to.[br][br]If having tried the above string suggestions and you still don't find the sound to your liking, as Moe suggests, plenty of awesome yet affordable e.g. Yamaha FG830, and not so affordable path options.[br][br]GL with it all, and above all else, enjoy yourself.

Wow, manXcat - will there be a written exam after that discourse? ;)

Seriously though, thank for all that info!

I owned an F-35 way back when, and I know for sure that mine was fully laminated, including the soundboard. Not a great deal of volume, but also not bad for a mass produced Japanese guitar from the late 70's. I currently have a vintage Sigma Dreadnought (made by Martin) with laminated body and solid soundboard that, not surprisingly, puts out more volume than the F-35 did.

Something you might want to try is replacing the plastic nut and saddle with something more resonant like bone, which is an inexpensive upgrade that you can do yourself with the help of YouTube. That won't necessarily increase the volume but will definitely give it a better overall tone.

I read a number of posts elsewhere from F-35 users who swapped out the thick strings for much thinner 9s or 10s and reportedly found that it improved the overall sound. I don't know though - that's a pretty radical change that would definitely require some truss rod adjustments and TBO I'm not so sure it would pan out in the end. I tried 10s on my Sigma Dreadnought and was unable to adjust the truss rod far enough to accomodate such light strings. Anyways, perhaps something worth trying before you decide to abandon it.

I'll 4th what the other 3 posters have said: There are a lot of decent sounding, new yet inexpensive, solid top Dreadnoughts to be had from many manufacturers. Good luck.

Sascha

Originally Posted by: aliasmaximus

Wow, manXcat - will there be a written exam after that discourse? ;)

Seriously though, thank for all that info!

Sascha

Mea culpa. I'm an serious attention to detail person Sascha. Although retired now, that's who you'd want up the pointy end watching those screens and dials and monitoring the flight director or in a mission critical emergency when things go pear shaped quickly when your life is on the line at 30,000+ feet in what effectively amounts to a pressurised Coke can with wings full of fuel. [br][br]Neither small talk nor glib superficial txt type one liners whether in the kind of neurotypical pretence at conversation or what passes for social interaction with them do it for me I'm afraid. Do it once. Do it thoroughly and apply whatever perseverence and effort it takes to succeed, or don't do it at all. Other than a meets or exceeds test standard competency result from the examining check Captain or authority, sheeple mob approval neither sought nor required by moi. [br][br]I can enjoy a joke along with participating dining in night fun 'n games hi-jinks in the Mess/Wardroom as I once did as much as the rest, but when some asks a question deserving of an answer, I try to give the kind of comprehensive answer I'd expect and prefer had asked that question. [br][br]Cheers mate!

Originally Posted by: aliasmaximus

I owned an F-35 way back when, and I know for sure that mine was fully laminated, including the soundboard. Not a great deal of volume, but also not bad for a mass produced Japanese guitar from the late 70's. I currently have a vintage Sigma Dreadnought (made by Martin) with laminated body and solid soundboard that, not surprisingly, puts out more volume than the F-35 did.

Sascha

That's interesting. I wonder why (?), and if you're comparing those remembered apples with the same apples in terms of setup and strings then and now etc. One wouldn't think the volume differential was just down to the soundboard tonewood factor, rather more influenced by the string type, gauge, internal cubic volume and bracing pattern for guitars of the same body shape and size? [br][br]That said, I readily 'fess don't own an F-35 and am never likely to to form any perception other than 'it's a Dreadnought and should be loud'. As mentioned in my intial post, my Dread is a laminated spruce top with a mahogany body, and it's as loud as (I want it to be)! [br][br]Cheers mate!

Originally Posted by: manXcat

That's interesting. I wonder why (?), and if you're comparing those remembered apples with the same apples in terms of setup and strings then and now etc. One wouldn't think the volume differential was just down to the soundboard tonewood factor, rather more influenced by the string type, gauge, internal cubic volume and bracing pattern for guitars of the same body shape and size?

Good points! Unfortunately, you're talking above my pay grade now. I never got around to researching that F-35 guitar when I had it although, at that time, the internet wasn't even a pie in the sky idea yet. And you're absolutely right about the "remembered apples...". Could be that I'm just remembering that F-35 apple incorrectly and that it was in fact on par with the Sigma in terms of sound output.

Originally Posted by: manXcat

Mea culpa. I'm an serious attention to detail person Sascha. Although retired now, that's who you'd want up the pointy end watching those screens and dials and monitoring the flight director or in a mission critical emergency when things go pear shaped quickly when your life is on the line at 30,000+ feet in what effectively amounts to a pressurised Coke can with wings full of fuel.

My wife has been watching episode after episode of "Air Disasters" on Smithsonian channel. Sometimes I sit in. Wow! You're absolutely right. I want someone like you at the controls or I don't want to fly at all. I was trained as a surgeon and know all about taking people's lives into one's hands, but 200+ people at one time! You've got a set of big brass ones, my friend. No need for mea culpas.

Sascha

I played a Yamaha FG180 for years. It has good tone and projection. I got it as a kid and it was not until I wore through the top veneer on the sound hole that I realized the top was made of thin plywood. It was a sruprise, because I had never thought the guitar lacked anything in regard to the sound. I wouldn't use it for a real gig or a recording but...In fact, I still have that guitar and use it when I go camping or to festivals. Don't want to mess up my Martin with dirt and life around the campfire. It is still a good guitar and serves this utilititarian purpose very well. This, despite it being over 50 years old.

Volume and tone can be acheived with plywood, my half centruy old Yamaha proves it. I don't immagine that it is easy, but making good guitars is difficult even with great wood. That is the magic art of Luthiers, and this archane skill is evident in how well it plays and sounds.

My old ax also holds up to abuse around the campfire quite well. I would't use it to make a high quality recording, but for howling at the moon it is still a great instrument. I also don't have to freak out with somebody spills some beer on it... wipe it up and continue playing...

Spot on snojones.

There is far too much snobbery or elitisim, susceptability to marketing and craven desire for peer approval of the label call it what you will influencing many people when they go shopping for a guitar. They're not listening to the instrument, but to their ego being massaged. That said, people are free to choose to pay for that if that's important to them.[br][br]Asian manufacturers are now turning out the majority of instruments as OEM for many famously familiar brands as well as their own which are mass produced to a consistent standard of excellence unsurpassed in previous decades. Other than if one wants to on very, very expensive boutique brands for exclusivity and arguable acoustic perfection, or segments within brands still manufactured in high labour cost and artificially inflated currency countries trading on market perception of a brand legacy, one doesn't need to spend a whole lot of money these days to buy a truly great sounding guitar which will serve the needs of any beginner or intermediate and arguably beyond for many years before most players will potentially reach that point where their demonstrated skill usurps the performance capability or limitations of the instrument, assuming the frets aren't worn out before then! [br][br]Along with my Yamaha APX e-acoustic slimline cutaway I own and use two full body acoustics, a Concert bodied Cort AF510 and a Dreadnought bodied AD810. And yes, the player in this demo should definitely have applied some string lube prior to executing this. Four and a half years in now, I couldn't want for nor perceive a need of more from an acoustic. These three still fit pretty much [u]my[/u] every acoustic purpose [u]at this time[/u]. [br][br]Perhaps it's just my presbycusis afflicted aging ears not listening to the price point but to the bright warm tones which has arrived at that conclusion. Although a recent hearing test produced an above average for age quantitative and qualitative result arguably refuting that as a factor. Price to acoustic performance, overall build quality along with features such as OEM D'Addario strings fitted default out of the box, scooped bridges and open pore Mahogany body tonewoods the Spruce laminate tops notwithstanding, in any blind test, these are up to [u]their job[/u] and will perform it as well as any and many well above their respective price points. [br][br]As a Yamaha instrument fan as many of you here might be aware, and having bought an Ibanez instrument of recent at a mid upper level price point with which I have been wholly unimpressed due build 'quality' absent quality control (where is it Ibanez?) for their relative price point in 2022, Cort OTOH are right up there with PRS IMV. In fact, Cort are the OEM manufacture for several PRS lines. e.g. SE. Can't go wrong today with any guitar from Yamaha or Cort FMM. Just choose a specification level, price point and desired acoustic tone or config if electric.