Do clean amp tones come in different flavors?

I'm considering different first amps (for use with my solid body electric). For me, a small amp, maybe a modeling amp would seem like an obvious candidate as I don't need much volume at all, never plan to gig, etc. I love, in principle, all the tonal options that these amps have, but I don't gravitate towards heavy distortion, fuzz effects, etc. Pretty much all of the modeling amps I see have 1 clean setting and then a slew of heavy tones (lead, crunch, brown...each with knobs that seem to further vary those tones). Is clean just clean and that's why there are not small modeling amps that have different tonal options for clean sounds, or is it just that there's not a market for that sort of thing? Obviously, playing with the tone controls can vary the sound of clean OR dirty but I wonder if there's more than thatwhen it comes to clean sounds.

The Fender GT Mustang line has different amp models (rather than sounds), all of which can be used clean, so maybe that is along the lines of what I'm looking for, but I don't really know (it's not like I really know know the difference between a Fender Bassman vs Tweed Deluxe or any of the other models). Is it more than just what can be accomplished by playing with the tone controls?

One of my all time favourite amplifiers is a Fender Vibro Champ XD a small 5 watt fender valve amp hybrid with on board digital effects...Lots of cleans from Jazz/Country/Blues to the more rock and even some metal.

Much like yourself I don't gig and only play at home so I wanted to be able to get nice clean and sometimes slight break up tones without it costing me a divorce.

For me this amp does it all. Lovely little things.

When you're looking into the world of "clean" amp tones, the hallmarks are basically British or American. Essentially, EL84 tubes or 6L6 tubes. Most modeling amps will distinguish between these two "clean" tones.

The America style clean trademarked by Fender in their 60's and 70's lines of tube amps is a crystal clear true-to-tone clean amp signal. Amps like the Princeton, Twin Reverb, Vibrolux, Tone Master, and the like all featured the 6L6 power tubes akin to this type of tone. High head room and low breakup is the character of this tone. Low breakup, meaning that the amp is difficult to overdrive. Even at high volumes. These amps graced almost every recording of these era's of music. If it was crystal clean, it was probably a Fender blackface amp. The later "silverface" models were updates on the older models and added a little more bite... On popular modeling amps, this is usually denoted by either American, US, or Cali.

The British style of clean tone comes from the Vox AC30 and eventual AC15 of the same era. These amps feature the EL84 tubes in the power section. These amps were made famous by none other than The Beatles.They had a chime to them that is unmistakable by most veteran recording artists and engineers. These amps have a higher propensity to break up at lower volumes and grabbed the ears of players who wanted a more versatile amp. Brian May famously used these as well. These aren't to be confused with Marshall amps... Which were designed to breakup and give that famous Marshall tone that fueled the harder rock and metal scenes of the 80's. Most modeling amps distinguish this clean tone as AC, UK, or Brit.

So, yes there are different flavors of clean tones. Some amps don't get into the modeling to a point that they make this distinction. Some have amp models, cab models, and even gain models for different levels of volume for these amps. That all depends on the modeling amp you're looking. Be advised that modeling amps are jacks of all trades and masters of none. They do things only to a loose point of accuracy. There's no real substitute for a real tube amp in either of these veins. I've played and owned both and can say that you'd probably be better off buying one and putting some pedals into it than getting a modeling amp. That's just my advice though.

Well, I appreciate your advice. I'm happy for all the input I can get. On the other hand, I feel an argument could be made for getting a modeling amp, especially since many of them are are so reasonably priced, to learn what your preferences are, then go for the real deal which, if a tube amp, will probably cost you a pretty penny.

Your response reminds me of another question, are pedals better than or comparable to the emulations of them (e.g., if you want know you like the Big Muff sound when you've heard it on recordings, are you going to be more satisfied with a real Big Muff, so to speak, or the version simulated in the Katana software).

As I armchair shop, one of the problems I've encountered is finding a good small tube amp that fits the bill for someone like me that will be a low-volume bedroom type player. I think the Fender clean type tone is what I'm after. Do you feel that the Fender style tube sound compares favorably to a Fender model. As per another post I posted recently, much of what I have heard vis-a-vis advantages of tube amps has to do with how they break up when driven. So I am left wondering if when playing at pre-breakup volumes (which I gather from your post is a much wider range on the volume knob than say a Marshall amp), is the difference between tube and solid state / modeler (or even between Marshall and Fender amps) not as noticeable. You did say that the Vox has a distinct "chime" to the tone. I know that learning how sound adjectives relate to sound is a long learning curve but is there any way you can further describe or define or give me an idea of what "chime" means. I presume it's more than just something you could get with a different amp by setting the EQ knobs differently.

Thanks,

Dave

Have you seen any of the Anderton videos? I find them interesting and entertaining and they have lots of comparison shows.

Yes, thanks. I've watched a lot of them. Personally, I wished they were a bit more concise but that's besides the point. They tend to play with a lot of distortion (especially Chapman) so not always relevent but they keep sucking me in. Unfortuneately, and I don't know if this is my old ears or the fact that I am listening through small headphones or what, but on these and other videos that compare this and that, I often can't hear any difference even though I do see other's comments expressing strong opinions about pickup A, for example, being much brighter or whatever than pickup B.

PS WilliamMG - If you enjoy the comparison videos, you would really like the videos on the Darrel Braun Guitar channel. Maybe you have watched those already. Really interesting although as I say, I am often hard pressed to tell a difference between things that others hear. Sometimes though, that is the point. Like if he hacks off most of the body off an old guitar with a jigsaw and does and before and after comparison and neither he nor I can hear any substantive difference.

Originally Posted by: dlwalke Unfortuneately, and I don't know if this is my old ears or the fact that I am listening through small headphones or what, but on these and other videos that compare this and that, I often can't hear any difference even though I do see other's comments expressing strong opinions about pickup A, for example, being much brighter or whatever than pickup B.

Same here. For me I have a minor hearing impairment (which doesn't seem to get better as I grow deeper into middle age) so I usually can't tell much of a difference in video reviews. Even in the cases where I can hear the difference I usually could not say one is better than another after watching someone play the different guitars/amps/fx pedals/etc for a few minutes on youTube . Maybe if I had a lot of experience with listening for certain things it would be a little different but I don't know enough to know what sounds good really. Plus, the dudes (almost always) doing the demos are usually good enough to make just about anything sound good!

Originally Posted by: dlwalke

PS WilliamMG - If you enjoy the comparison videos, you would really like the videos on the Darrel Braun Guitar channel...

Yes, I enjoy his shows as well.

Hey, Dave!

Definitely have gotten yourself into one of the big topics amongst guitarists, here. It's a great topic of discussion and firstly you have to know that everything in music and art boils down to personal taste. Modeling amps are great, please don't take my recommendation to get a real tube amp as a knock on them entirely. I'll try to explain the main differences for you first.

It's important to note that modeling amps, being solid state, run their "tone emulators" through digital circuitry. Now, these technologies have come miles since I last owned a modeling pedal board. I've owned a DigiTech RP80 (I think?), DigiTech GNX2, and a Line6 PODxt Live at different points in my playing career. All of which I put a lot of hours on and all of which I really enjoyed in those phases of my playing. Historically, it's difficult for digital modelers to emulate the saturation of tubes and provide the same dynammics. Dynamics being how they react to each different pick attack. Light, Hard, flat, plucky, etc... The tones of modelers tend to be compressed in this way. Compression can be good, but it can also be bad. You'll probably find that modeling amps are cheaper but there are more expensive options out there. Obviously these more expensive options are going to more accurately replicate the amps and pedals that they're representing. So, modeling amps are good for what they are, they're just never going to be what they're emulating. That's a good distinction. If you're starting out and want to mess with the multitude of pedal and amp combinations, then this is most definitely the way to go. I used my gradually upgrades in modeing pedal boards as a way to learn how different elements of pedals work. How effects work together, compressors, delays, cabs, amp heads... Going through all that I was able to know exactly what I wanted later. So, this is a good place to start as any.

Now, about pedals. Since most every pedal in these emulators are digital reproductions of an analog circuit, they're only going to get so close. I will tell you that there is still no subsitute for the real thing. Like you said, the lexicon of tone terms is big and varies slightly, but the best way is to actually HEAR what these pedals sound like in real life. Going to a store (not likely able to do now...) and playing gear is the best way to really let your ears decide. Otherwise you might never know how good something can sound. The funny thing about pedals is that even the same type of pedal can sound entirely different depending on different things... being analog, the tones may change slightly on pedals from even the same manufacturing run. It's funny that you mentioned Big Muff's... I have a late 90's Russian Muff (Black, not green) and it sounds great. I recently purchased a reproduction of the Triangle Big Muff to replace it on my pedal board and this new pedal sounds incredibly more articulate than my Russian Muff did.

The terms that are sometimes hard to get used to. What I mean for Vox chime is that there is a harmonic chime to the tone that favors the treble side while not allowing the whole tone of the amp to be too brittle. Fender's cleans are known for being transparent and allowing the guitar and the player to really dictate the tone. Vox amps have a bit of color to them and add a bit of dirt along the way. Another term that people don't really understand is "headroom". This is usually used to describe the tonal dynamics of an amp or tone. This can be where you can play very lightly and the volume reflects that... then when you gradually play harder the volume and dynamics are reflected in the playing. When you start to apply compression to a tone, these dynamics get scrunched together and you will notice that no matter how hard you play or how soft you play, the tone comes out within a smaller range of volume. This compression is what happens a lot with modeling amps. It robs the natural headroom from the tube amps that it's trying to recreate. That's the main argument against modeling amplifiers, anyway,. The character of the tone is very difficult to model, which is why there really aren't any modeling amps out there short of the Kemper that would satisfy anyone that does play real tube amps. But, that's not the purpose of most modelers. They're a tool and they're a great tool. So, again - Go for it if you're on a budget. They give a great amount of fun things to explore your own tastes!

Someone mentioned the Anderton's Music videos and I can second that. They do a great job! They even have a video where they put the Kemper modeling amp against the real deal and they have a hard time telling which is which. Obviously, the Kemper is on the super high end of technology and price... But it's fun to see regardless.

Anyway, great discussion here! If you have any other questions or wonderings, let me know! I'm happy to give my insight on tone that I've learned from my 20+ years of tone searching.

Thanks Ascleman. I mentioned the BIg Muff because the day before I was trying to figure out the tone on the solo's of American Woman by BTO and thought it might be a Big Muff (it wasn't). I ended up listening to a comparison of some Big Muff's . For what it's worth, I preferred the triangle out of all of them.

Anyway, thanks for being generous with your time. I DO have plenty of questions and will look forward to your future input. I think I will start a new thread - something like "General question about modeling amps" or "What amp characteristics can be modelled."