Triads in relation to caged and scales?

Guitar Tricks Forum > Music Theory > Triads in relation to caged and scales?

bouncee

Registered User

Joined: 01/18/20

Posts: 26

So dving into triads and chord voicing. Noticed the swap of root placement. So far I've looked at string 1+2+3 and 2+3+4, major and minor.

Then while practicing moving various shapes around the neck I came to think of the CAGED system. I struggled and gave up learning it a while back. But now I think I kind of think I had the wrong idea when trying to learn CAGED. I think the essens I got from CAGED was that it was just another way to fingering chords, or that the chords was the most important part. I think I fcuk'd up? Could it be that the various chord shaped was more for navigating the neck for partial chords ie triads and scales more then actual using the full CAGED finger setting?

If I use close triads I will be able to play the chord progression with minimal movement. And in every position there should be a scale close by too, yes? So that fills can be played rapidly in the pocket and not wasting beats moving hand up and down the fretboard?

I hope this is possible to understand. English not native to me.

#1

So dving into triads and chord voicing. Noticed the swap of root placement. So far I've looked at string 1+2+3 and 2+3+4, major and minor.

Then while practicing moving various shapes around the neck I came to think of the CAGED system. I struggled and gave up learning it a while back. But now I think I kind of think I had the wrong idea when trying to learn CAGED. I think the essens I got from CAGED was that it was just another way to fingering chords, or that the chords was the most important part. I think I fcuk'd up? Could it be that the various chord shaped was more for navigating the neck for partial chords ie triads and scales more then actual using the full CAGED finger setting?

If I use close triads I will be able to play the chord progression with minimal movement. And in every position there should be a scale close by too, yes? So that fills can be played rapidly in the pocket and not wasting beats moving hand up and down the fretboard?

I hope this is possible to understand. English not native to me.

ChristopherSchlegel

Guitar Tricks Instructor

Joined: 08/09/05

Posts: 7386

Originally Posted by: bouncee

So dving into triads and chord voicing.

I have an entire collection of tutorials that cover all possible major & minor triads & their inversions across all sets of adjacent strings.

https://www.guitartricks.com/collection/triads-and-inversions

Originally Posted by: bouncee
Then while practicing moving various shapes around the neck I came to think of the CAGED system.

Yes, the essence of CAGED is that there are static chord shapes you can move up & down the fretboard to play any given chord by moving a shape to a different root note. And many of the triads & their inversions are contained in the CAGED patterns.

However, this is one reason I think that in some cases CAGED can hinder more than help. It makes more musical sense (conceptually to understand & perceptually to see chord tones) to simply understand the basic triads & inversions as fundamental units.

Originally Posted by: bouncee
Could it be that the various chord shaped was more for navigating the neck for partial chords ie triads and scales more then actual using the full CAGED finger setting?

Yes, you've got the right idea. :) This tutorial covers CAGED for rhythm guitar in detail & explains exactly this concept.

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=2614

Originally Posted by: bouncee
If I use close triads I will be able to play the chord progression with minimal movement.

Yes, that is covered in detail in the triads tutorials I linked above.

Originally Posted by: bouncee
And in every position there should be a scale close by too, yes? So that fills can be played rapidly in the pocket and not wasting beats moving hand up and down the fretboard?

Yes, I explain that in CAGED for lead guitar. :)

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=2619

If you are not a full access member a couple of brief versions on my YouTube channel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuObeNjBg2Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGbNmLqLfzM

Hope this helps!

Christopher Schlegel
Guitar Tricks Instructor

Christopher Schlegel Lesson Directory

#2

Originally Posted by: bouncee

So dving into triads and chord voicing.

I have an entire collection of tutorials that cover all possible major & minor triads & their inversions across all sets of adjacent strings.

https://www.guitartricks.com/collection/triads-and-inversions

Originally Posted by: bouncee
Then while practicing moving various shapes around the neck I came to think of the CAGED system.

Yes, the essence of CAGED is that there are static chord shapes you can move up & down the fretboard to play any given chord by moving a shape to a different root note. And many of the triads & their inversions are contained in the CAGED patterns.

However, this is one reason I think that in some cases CAGED can hinder more than help. It makes more musical sense (conceptually to understand & perceptually to see chord tones) to simply understand the basic triads & inversions as fundamental units.

Originally Posted by: bouncee
Could it be that the various chord shaped was more for navigating the neck for partial chords ie triads and scales more then actual using the full CAGED finger setting?

Yes, you've got the right idea. :) This tutorial covers CAGED for rhythm guitar in detail & explains exactly this concept.

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=2614

Originally Posted by: bouncee
If I use close triads I will be able to play the chord progression with minimal movement.

Yes, that is covered in detail in the triads tutorials I linked above.

Originally Posted by: bouncee
And in every position there should be a scale close by too, yes? So that fills can be played rapidly in the pocket and not wasting beats moving hand up and down the fretboard?

Yes, I explain that in CAGED for lead guitar. :)

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=2619

If you are not a full access member a couple of brief versions on my YouTube channel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuObeNjBg2Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGbNmLqLfzM

Hope this helps!

Christopher Schlegel
Guitar Tricks Instructor

Christopher Schlegel Lesson Directory

bouncee

Registered User

Joined: 01/18/20

Posts: 26

Btw. Somewhere along my learning path I came across a video that showed a trick I didn't understand or think much of when I viewed the video. I forgot to bookmark video so can't find back to it.

Then thing I think was the take away was that for songs that linger on one chord for several bars they used the triad shape up or down 1 whole step to create some movement rather then static one chord. It became almost melodic.

In a blues I know I can slide in "from behind" and that works fine. But I usually slide a half step. Here it was whole step and not sliding but "swapping" back andforth between the new imposed chord and the underlaying chord.

I couldn't understand why that would work, nor when is the apropriate time to use it or what is available chords to impose over the one static chord underneath. It this understandable? I barely understand it and language barrier on top makes it hard to express myself.

Why does this work and why does it sound good? Is the answer to that in the scales?

#3

Btw. Somewhere along my learning path I came across a video that showed a trick I didn't understand or think much of when I viewed the video. I forgot to bookmark video so can't find back to it.

Then thing I think was the take away was that for songs that linger on one chord for several bars they used the triad shape up or down 1 whole step to create some movement rather then static one chord. It became almost melodic.

In a blues I know I can slide in "from behind" and that works fine. But I usually slide a half step. Here it was whole step and not sliding but "swapping" back andforth between the new imposed chord and the underlaying chord.

I couldn't understand why that would work, nor when is the apropriate time to use it or what is available chords to impose over the one static chord underneath. It this understandable? I barely understand it and language barrier on top makes it hard to express myself.

Why does this work and why does it sound good? Is the answer to that in the scales?

ChristopherSchlegel

Guitar Tricks Instructor

Joined: 08/09/05

Posts: 7386

So you're good on triads now?

Originally Posted by: bouncee

Then thing I think was the take away was that for songs that linger on one chord for several bars they used the triad shape up or down 1 whole step to create some movement rather then static one chord. It became almost melodic.

Anders mentions it in some of his lessons I think. You've got the basic idea: it's done to create some movement, or motion.

Originally Posted by: bouncee
[/p]

In a blues I know I can slide in "from behind" and that works fine. But I usually slide a half step. Here it was whole step and not sliding but "swapping" back andforth between the new imposed chord and the underlaying chord.

Yes, in blues slide up from half-step below, in jazz slide down from half-step above. It's the same principle: playing a chord near the target chord, then moving to the target chord delays it's arrival adding tension, drama, motion. It's embellishment, ornamentation.

Originally Posted by: bouncee
[/p]

I couldn't understand why that would work, nor when is the apropriate time to use it or what is available chords to impose over the one static chord underneath....

Why does this work and why does it sound good? Is the answer to that in the scales?

It's appropriate when you desire that sound. You can use a chord in the same key, or simple move chromatically. It's purely an artistic choice.

Hope that helps!

Christopher Schlegel
Guitar Tricks Instructor

Christopher Schlegel Lesson Directory

#4

So you're good on triads now?

Originally Posted by: bouncee

Then thing I think was the take away was that for songs that linger on one chord for several bars they used the triad shape up or down 1 whole step to create some movement rather then static one chord. It became almost melodic.

Anders mentions it in some of his lessons I think. You've got the basic idea: it's done to create some movement, or motion.

Originally Posted by: bouncee
[/p]

In a blues I know I can slide in "from behind" and that works fine. But I usually slide a half step. Here it was whole step and not sliding but "swapping" back andforth between the new imposed chord and the underlaying chord.

Yes, in blues slide up from half-step below, in jazz slide down from half-step above. It's the same principle: playing a chord near the target chord, then moving to the target chord delays it's arrival adding tension, drama, motion. It's embellishment, ornamentation.

Originally Posted by: bouncee
[/p]

I couldn't understand why that would work, nor when is the apropriate time to use it or what is available chords to impose over the one static chord underneath....

Why does this work and why does it sound good? Is the answer to that in the scales?

It's appropriate when you desire that sound. You can use a chord in the same key, or simple move chromatically. It's purely an artistic choice.

Hope that helps!

Christopher Schlegel
Guitar Tricks Instructor

Christopher Schlegel Lesson Directory

bouncee

Registered User

Joined: 01/18/20

Posts: 26

Thank you for taking the time.

So one more thing that is sort of important to get a better grip on now while I work to remembering the shapes and fingersetting for triads is how to use embellisments with triads.

On open chords or even barre chords we or at least me I often fall for an easy escape. I end up using sus chords. Often that is just swapping between the chord, sus 2 and sus 4. I think it is time to explore this further, reason I am kind of stuck on the sus chords is tbh lack of imagination and skills or possible to little knowledge of music theory and too little jamming with other musicians.

How would you go about it say over a I IV V progression? Or a I ii IV V? In other words, pop and rock songs, new and old ones.

What other spices should I look into other then sus chords? Remember this is for a triad setting.

#5

Thank you for taking the time.

So one more thing that is sort of important to get a better grip on now while I work to remembering the shapes and fingersetting for triads is how to use embellisments with triads.

On open chords or even barre chords we or at least me I often fall for an easy escape. I end up using sus chords. Often that is just swapping between the chord, sus 2 and sus 4. I think it is time to explore this further, reason I am kind of stuck on the sus chords is tbh lack of imagination and skills or possible to little knowledge of music theory and too little jamming with other musicians.

How would you go about it say over a I IV V progression? Or a I ii IV V? In other words, pop and rock songs, new and old ones.

What other spices should I look into other then sus chords? Remember this is for a triad setting.

ChristopherSchlegel

Guitar Tricks Instructor

Joined: 08/09/05

Posts: 7386

Originally Posted by: bouncee
[/p]

So one more thing that is sort of important to get a better grip on now while I work to remembering the shapes and fingersetting for triads is how to use embellisments with triads.

Sure, that's why it's important to know the scale degrees of the triads & inversions. Then you can see the scale degrees that surround them, in order to see the possibilities for embellishments.

Since the chords are 1st-3rd-5th, you can usually count on convenient ways to add the 2nd, 4th & 6th above any shape. With some creative fingering you can play the 7th, or any close scale degree below any shape. And it works great for major or minor triads!

Originally Posted by: bouncee
... or possible to little knowledge of music theory and too little jamming with other musicians.

Yes, learn your major & minor scale degrees. Know which note of any given triad is 1-3-5.

Originally Posted by: bouncee
How would you go about it say over a I IV V progression? Or a I ii IV V? In other words, pop and rock songs, new and old ones.[/p]

Depends on the genre of music. But in general I look for ways to add scale degrees that are close to the triad shapes I'm using.

I cover a wide variety of these in these tutorials.

Soulful R&B 1

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=1316

Soulful R&B 2

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=1454

And some in the triads & inversions tutorials I linked in my previous reply.

Anders also covers some of these types of embellishments in his rock course lessons.

https://www.guitartricks.com/lesson.php?input=22604&s_id=1819

And his acoustic course!

https://www.guitartricks.com/lesson.php?input=29876

Hope that helps!

Christopher Schlegel
Guitar Tricks Instructor

Christopher Schlegel Lesson Directory

#6

Originally Posted by: bouncee
[/p]

So one more thing that is sort of important to get a better grip on now while I work to remembering the shapes and fingersetting for triads is how to use embellisments with triads.

Sure, that's why it's important to know the scale degrees of the triads & inversions. Then you can see the scale degrees that surround them, in order to see the possibilities for embellishments.

Since the chords are 1st-3rd-5th, you can usually count on convenient ways to add the 2nd, 4th & 6th above any shape. With some creative fingering you can play the 7th, or any close scale degree below any shape. And it works great for major or minor triads!

Originally Posted by: bouncee
... or possible to little knowledge of music theory and too little jamming with other musicians.

Yes, learn your major & minor scale degrees. Know which note of any given triad is 1-3-5.

Originally Posted by: bouncee
How would you go about it say over a I IV V progression? Or a I ii IV V? In other words, pop and rock songs, new and old ones.[/p]

Depends on the genre of music. But in general I look for ways to add scale degrees that are close to the triad shapes I'm using.

I cover a wide variety of these in these tutorials.

Soulful R&B 1

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=1316

Soulful R&B 2

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=1454

And some in the triads & inversions tutorials I linked in my previous reply.

Anders also covers some of these types of embellishments in his rock course lessons.

https://www.guitartricks.com/lesson.php?input=22604&s_id=1819

And his acoustic course!

https://www.guitartricks.com/lesson.php?input=29876

Hope that helps!

Christopher Schlegel
Guitar Tricks Instructor

Christopher Schlegel Lesson Directory

bouncee

Registered User

Joined: 01/18/20

Posts: 26

Thx Chris. Very helpful.

Got to to practicing.

#7

Thx Chris. Very helpful.

Got to to practicing.

ChristopherSchlegel

Guitar Tricks Instructor

Joined: 08/09/05

Posts: 7386

You're welcome!

Originally Posted by: bouncee

Got to to practicing.

Good plan! Best of success!

Christopher Schlegel
Guitar Tricks Instructor

Christopher Schlegel Lesson Directory

#8

You're welcome!

Originally Posted by: bouncee

Got to to practicing.

Good plan! Best of success!

Christopher Schlegel
Guitar Tricks Instructor

Christopher Schlegel Lesson Directory