Applying mPentatonic

I was watching a YTube video- if you want to check it out to follow along with what I am saying, it's called 6 note solo technique (S. Stine is the teacher.) The chord chasing part is at 11:10.

At first, he was teaching a simple riff and later chord chasing. He showed how over an A chord, you can simply go to the 5th fret and play the 6 notes of the mPenta starting on the 5th string (2-4, 2-4, 2-4.) Easy enough- all those notes are in the Am Penta, but then he said if the chords change, you can chase them. He referenced D, then G. When he changed chords, it appears like he went to the same relative area (one string below the root D to play the 6 note pattern, then the same for G.) It sounded like it worked when he did it but to me, those notes on the D, G, didn't seem to fit in with e.g., Am Penta pattern. What am I missing? By themselves, they work perfect, but if it's in a key- I am not sure they should.

He commented that if music always made sense, we wouldn't have rock n roll!

My questions...

Do you think he was just showing random examples- or trying to play this in one given key? Logically, I would think it has to be random because I don't think those notes would work- but he referenced, "when the chords change" which suggest he is playing it all as one piece.

I don't even know what Key A G and D would fit into - maybe G-flat major...but then a mPenta would not seem to work.

I did ask the same question to him in the video, but I haven't heard back yet. He made it seem very simple but I am confused.

At one point, he played all threee chords and stayed in the Am penta scale pattern the entire time (exactly what I would normally do.) He even said, that sounds awesome. Again, I am just not sure how he then started the mPenta pattern at the location of each new chord- it shouldn't work that way. Usually I know 1 key, and I stick to that scale because all the notes, and the most important root fits. I can find all the locations for the root and emphasize it to make it sound right.

Is he just doing a bit of improvising- am I over thinking it? I like structure because without it, I would not know where to go next. I probably do not have the best ear so I mostly rely on patterns and scales. I still use an electronic tuner!

That lesson is about just getting started with improvisation. It's a fine way to start gaining some basic skills that combine the physical skills of alternating between rhythm guitar chord strumming & single note lead line playing. It is pretty thin conceptually. He doesn't explain how or why you are doing any of that stuff.

Originally Posted by: SRVFan2000

He showed how over an A chord, you can simply go to the 5th fret and play the 6 notes of the mPenta starting on the 5th string (2-4, 2-4, 2-4.) Easy enough- all those notes are in the Am Penta[/quote][p]This is a little misleading. First the minor pentatonic scale only has 5 notes, then they repeat. So he is using a 6 note pattern, but starting to repeat notes from the scale. And he doesn't explain why to use those specific notes. I think he chose them simply because it is an easy pattern to visualize & play.

I get that he's after a simple, easy & obvious pattern for beginners to play. But he is combining an A major chord with an A minor scale. That is perfectly acceptable & often used in a blues or blues rock context. But it's often best to start by explaining how chords & scale are related to each other before mixing & matching ideas from different contexts. Especially if you aren't going to explain them.

Can you play it? Yes! It's great skill building. But as soon as you ask anything about why you are lost & going to need more knowledge to move forward.

Originally Posted by: SRVFan2000...but then he said if the chords change, you can chase them.[/quote]

He is following the chord changes & this is a perfectly acceptable way to solo. But he doesn't explain is that there are basically 2 different ways to approach soloing.

1. Start in one key signature (scale) & target any & all chord tones as they change.

2. Change key signatures (scales) along with the chords as they change.

And of course you can do a mixture of those 2 concepts.

In that video he is doing option 1.

Originally Posted by: SRVFan2000He referenced D, then G. When he changed chords, it appears like he went to the same relative area (one string below the root D to play the 6 note pattern, then the same for G.) It sounded like it worked when he did it but to me, those notes on the D, G, didn't seem to fit in with e.g., Am Penta pattern. What am I missing?[/quote]

You are missing the conceptual knowledge of what is happening because he didn't provide it. :)

Originally Posted by: SRVFan2000He commented that if music always made sense, we wouldn't have rock n roll!

This is a great example of bad teaching. It should be obvious that if things didn't make sense there is no reason for anyone to teach anything, right? You just do whatever random thing you want that makes no sense.

Why stay on the 5th & 7th frets? Why try to vaguely connect scale lines with chords at all? Why use scale patterns?

Obviously he is basing his examples on something. Why not explain what those ideas are if you are supposedly teaching?

[quote=SRVFan2000]Do you think he was just showing random examples- or trying to play this in one given key?

He is just showing you the basics of how to get started alternating between playing rhythm chords & lead lines without too much conceptual info to explain.

[quote=SRVFan2000]

I don't even know what Key A G and D would fit into - maybe G-flat major...but then a mPenta would not seem to work.

[p]Those chords all fit in the key of D major.

D (I) - G (IV) - A (V)

Or they could fit in an A mixolydian mode.

A (I) - G (bVII) - D (IV)

But it doesn't matter if they go together in his example because he's just showing an option of following the chord changes by changing scales to match that chord with no relationship to the chord that came before or after.

Again, it's just a beginner example of physical skill building. And that's fine as far as it goes. It becomes problematic when you go looking for conceptual understanding. Or claim that "sometimes music doesn't make sense".

[quote=SRVFan2000]Is he just doing a bit of improvising- am I over thinking it?

No, you are asking good questions. But that video has no answers.

I cover all that & more, with conceptual explanations in my collection of tutorials on improvisation.

https://www.guitartricks.com/collection/learning-to-improvise

It starts pretty simple, but it gets complex quickly.

For a more in dpeth look at how to combine major chords & minor scales have a look at these tutorials.

Major Notes In Minor Pentatonic Series 1

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=217

Major Notes In Minor Pentatonic Series 2

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=232

Major Notes In Minor Pentatonic Series 3

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=826

Major Notes In Minor Pentatonic Series 4

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=244

Hope that helps!

Wow- thanks for that detailed answer Chris. He is actually probably the #1 most popular teacher online. He is a legend on YTube. He has a very simple teaching style that people relate to. I really like him too but I understand what you are saying. Now that you clearly explained the technicality (or lack therof), it makes sense. He is just showing some very beginner ways of noodling around (which he basically says) so I should not overthink it. I do like to play correctly, in context of a key- relative to the other chords. I just couldn't get there with that example. Maybe my take away is that I can occasionally mix things up and try some new musical detours with the changes, but never lose sight of the main scale.

In this case, I would just mostly stick to playing the A minor Penta because it all makes sense and simply works. I do like adding the blues notes and the flattened 5th in some cases- really adds depth. I learned that one from another excellent GT video.

Currently I am also focusing on trying to really learning every note on the fretboard. I just learned the neumonic phrase to remember BEADGCF. It works great to find all those natural notes on the fretboard. From there it's easy to fill in the shaprs and flats. I am also focusing on the root note and can find all 8 of them (root notes in 1 octave e.g., open E to fret 12) by both pattern, and by ear. When I get to that root in the scale, I play it (repeat it) 20 times until it becomes ingrained. It's simple trick, but it works for me. Eventualy, I want to be able to instantly find the note and play it when the chords change. For now, emphasizing the root note abd playing in the right key is good enough. It makes my playing sound more intentional and better. Adding bit size licks and playing dynamically also seems to helps.

I've only been a member of GT for a week and I've learned a lot. I should make some good progress before my year is up. I've been playing for many years casually. I have taken some lessons on and off- and I like theory (mostly!) Having that base really helps put the puzzle together. It's great having someone as knowledgable and skilled as you offering your insights. I also saw some of your videos in here and YTube. You are a very skilled player and teacher.

The only one thing I would hope GT can someday change is the near constant captca verification. I've never seen that before- not even on my banks website. I've also done work in IT for years. Once I am logged in, or did it once, my session is verified until I log out. It takes me a little out of my flow- but I guess they have their reasons.

You're welcome for the reply!

Originally Posted by: SRVFan2000I do like to play correctly, in context of a key- relative to the other chords.[/quote]

Knowing how, why & when to stay in key is the first essential step in learning how to improvise. It will teach you a great deal about how music works.

Originally Posted by: SRVFan2000Maybe my take away is that I can occasionally mix things up and try some new musical detours with the changes, but never lose sight of the main scale.[/quote]

I think a better lesson is to learn how, why & when to play in & out of key. :)

Originally Posted by: SRVFan2000In this case, I would just mostly stick to playing the A minor Penta because it all makes sense and simply works.[/quote]

I'm not sure that it does work. After all here you are asking questions. I sometimes do a similar exercise with students, but use the major pentatonic with major chords. Then minor pentatonic with minor chords. That approach actually does make sense because the chords match the scale; it's all integrated.

Start with this A major styled/shaped barre chord, but visualizing it as scale degrees that form chord tones.

----|------|------|------|------|------|---

----|------|------|--3--|------|------|---

----|------|------|--1--|------|------|---

----|------|------|--5--|------|------|---

----|--1--|------|------|------|------|---

----|------|------|------|------|------|---

Then visualize the other scale degrees near the chord tones.

----|------|------|------|------|------|---

----|------|------|--3--|------|------|---

----|------|------|--1--|------|--2---|---

----|------|------|--5--|------|--6--|---

----|--1--|------|--2--|------|--3--|---

----|------|------|------|------|------|---

Now you can use that information to do a little musical phrase starting with a barre chord, then adding a melodic single line lick after it. You start with the chord, then you play a line in major pentatonic starting on the root, moving through the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, to the root an octave higher, add the 2nd, then come down to end on the root. Example in D major.

|-------------------------------|-------------------------------|

|--7----------------------------|--7---------------------------|

|--7-------------------7-9-7--|--7----7-9-7----------------|

|--7--------------7-9----------|--7------------9-7----------|

|--5-------5/7-9--------------|--5------------------9-7/5--|

|-------------------------------|--------------------------------|

Now you have a nfity little symmetrical lick that's easy to see, play & hear. And best of all it's all integrated musical, the chord & scales are from the same system.

And if you think of the D major as the I chord, then you move the pattern to the G (IV) & A (V) chords as well & stay in key.

G (IV)

|---------------------------------------|

|--12----------------------------------|

|--12--------------------12-14-12--|

|--12-----------12-14---------------|

|--10---10/12-----------------------|

|---------------------------------------|

A (IV)

|-----------------------------|

|--2-------------------------|

|--2----------------2-4-2--|

|--2-----------2-4----------|

|--0---0-2-4---------------|

|-----------------------------|

It all works on each chord isolated & together as a system in key. Now it gets more complex if you want to use the full diatonic scale or do anything more interesting or musical. But it's a good place for beginners to start experimenting with rhythm & lead playing.

I use this approach on my CAGED for lead guitar tutorial.

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=2619

But I strongly encourage you to also work through my collection of tutorials on improvisation.

https://www.guitartricks.com/collection/learning-to-improvise

Originally Posted by: SRVFan2000Currently I am also focusing on trying to really learning every note on the fretboard.

Good plan. That is absolutely essential knowledge!

[quote=SRVFan2000]I've only been a member of GT for a week and I've learned a lot. I should make some good progress before my year is up.

Good deal! Glad you are learning from & enjoying the lessons!

[quote=SRVFan2000]and I like theory (mostly!) Having that base really helps put the puzzle together.

Yes, it's helpful to understand what you are doing!

[quote=SRVFan2000]The only one thing I would hope GT can someday change is the near constant captca verification.

Yes, it gets me too. :) It's frustrating but I suppose it helps with spam.

Thanks Chris,

I have the mPenta down- can play at speed, accurately up and down the neck. I know how to jump down 3 frets if a song is in a major key so I can still play along. I know the 1st position of the major scale (all 7 notes) so I can hang somewhat with jazz and other types of major tunes (but to a limited degree.)

I agree- I have a lot to learn about how, why and when to play certain things. For example, I know (ok, think) the major pentatonic occupies the same exact fretted locations as the mPenta (all 5 patterns) but I don't yet know which notes to play- other than the root and the pattern- so again, very limited and repetative.

When I said, "it works" I meant playing the Am Penta over Am tune e.g., rock or blues. That does seem to work for me all the time.

Your starting to lose me a bit on the scale degrees. I will watch your lessons and get that down. I know the forumulas to come up with I, IV, IV in Major or Minor scales. I think you are saying to look at the chords themselves and their construction. I guess those notes that make up the chord also correspond with the I, IV, V of some scale- maybe the major scale of it's a major chord or of the minor scale if it's a minor chord? Clearly, I have a lot to learn. I agree- it can get pretty complicated.

I haven't learned CAGED yet- tried a couple of times but it never stuck. Maybe your video will do the trick! I can find BEADGBF all over the fretboard- good trick for remembering the location of all the notes (I then just have to fill in the #'s and flats.) Yes, these lessons and your detailed answers in this forum are pure gold!

Still not sure about that captca thing but it is what it is. Technically speaking, once you confirm your session, unless someone physically jumps on my computer, all should be good. They definitely need to ease up on that a bit. LOL- just went to hit post and guess what..."Click on every car you see (yet again.)" Really? (;

Thanks again!

You're welcome for the replies!

Originally Posted by: SRVFan2000For example, I know (ok, think) the major pentatonic occupies the same exact fretted locations as the mPenta (all 5 patterns) but I don't yet know which notes to play- other than the root and the pattern- so again, very limited and repetative.[/quote]

This is where learning licks from songs & the style course lessons helps: so you know what to do with pentatonic scales to make them musical. Then learning the scale degrees of the patterns helps you understand why those licks sound the way they do.

[quote=SRVFan2000]I think you are saying to look at the chords themselves and their construction.

Yes, start with intervals, use them to build scales, use those to build chords. See how they are all inter-related, all integrated into one system. Work through the lessons. :)

Have fun!

Thanks. I worked through the scales last night for a few hours. Have a much better grasp on finding all the degrees in both major and minor scales. I practiced the major scale (1st position) over a backing track for about an hour. I basically have the muscle memory now. Also, using the same key of A major, I made a short piece utilizing slash chords (F# over the A major sounded good.) I emphasized the open E over the E chord and played the bassline on the "1" count. Probably not necessary if playing with a bass player but on my own it has a nice sound to it. It would probably sound good as a loop track as well.

Tab is easy as quick notation but falls a little short on capturing everything. If you recommend it, do you offer any intro. courses to reading/writing sheet music?

Thanks!

Originally Posted by: SRVFan2000I worked through the scales last night for a few hours. Have a much better grasp on finding all the degrees in both major and minor scales.[/quote]

Well done!

Originally Posted by: SRVFan2000I emphasized the open E over the E chord and played the bassline on the "1" count. Probably not necessary if playing with a bass player but on my own it has a nice sound to it. It would probably sound good as a loop track as well.

Yes, a bass note, or backing track is a great way to stay grounded to the key & chord changes.

I often play blues or jazz tunes this way. Play the chord or bass note for the first beat of the measure, then switch to a lead fill that works with that chord, playing some melodic phrase. Then when the next chord change happens, play the chord or bass note reinforcing the musical context before playing the next lead fill.

[quote=SRVFan2000]Tab is easy as quick notation but falls a little short on capturing everything. If you recommend it, do you offer any intro. courses to reading/writing sheet music?

Tab misses the rhythmic info. I use Guitar Pro software & old fashioned paper & pencil.

My old GF2 course has content on the basics of reading & writing musical notation in chapter 4.

https://www.guitartricks.com/course.php?input=fundamentals2(discontinued)

Once you understand the basics, a great way to practice & learn more is to read along with the notation on a familar piece of music to get more experience at seeing rhythmic notation.