(flat 5th = minor 5th)..?
So in notating scale degrees...
i really like the idea of just writing m5 to flow with all the rest of the scale degrees
(1, m2, 2, m3, 3; etc)
but I know everyone calls it flat 5
but is m5 technically correct; because flat has to do with pitch; not scale degree... right?
Originally Posted by: Whunebut is m5 technically correct; because flat has to do with pitch; not scale degree... right?
No. :)[br][br]Flat does mean lower in pitch. But the major scale is the standard unit of measurement. So, typically the terms major or minor are reserved for the scale degrees that differ in major and minor scales.
major & minor 3rd
major & minor 6th
major & minor 7th
The term reserved for the other degrees is perfect.
perfect unison
perfect 4th
perfect 5th
perfect octave
To alter these we typically use the terms flat (or diminished), sharp (or augmented).
To confuse matters, the lowered or flat 2nd is occasionally referred to as minor or diminished. Some of this had to do with measuring the halfstep between other scale degrees. For example, the distance between the 2nd & major 3rd is a whole step or a major second, but the distance between the major 3rd & 4th is a halfstep or a minor second.
See here for more.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interval_(music)#Alternative_interval_naming_conventions
I don't think it's a big deal to call it a minor 5th if that helps you conceptually organize. But you should be aware of the standard naming conventions when you communicate with other musicians.
Hope that helps!
Originally Posted by: ChristopherSchlegelTo alter these we typically use the terms flat (or diminished), sharp (or augmented).
To confuse matters, the lowered or flat 2nd is occasionally referred to as minor or diminished.
[/quote]
this just sounds like the same phenomena in etymology...
Popular misuse corrupting the vocabulary...
Like most people saying "sarcasm" when what they mean is "fascetious"
(Sarcasm - derivitive of chasm - implies an attitude of contempt)
I mean... so what happens when you have an F# diminished Chord?[br]or a Bb augmented?[br][br]It seems like using sharp and augmented interchangeably is just silly.[br]They're NOT the same thing.[br][br]So basically what i'm hearing is that flat being a matter of pitch doesn't really have any place in talking about scale degrees...
but because it's just common to say b5... that's what it's called.
[quote=ChristopherSchlegel]
Some of this had to do with measuring the halfstep between other scale degrees. For example, the distance between the 2nd & major 3rd is a whole step or a major second, but the distance between the major 3rd & 4th is a halfstep or a minor second.
yeah but that's all just a matter of perspective relative to where you coming from... right? How's that justify calling a scale degree flat/sharp?
Scale degrees change relative to position;
like a m6 in relation to a 4th; is also a m3 in relation to a 1
but pitch is absolute.
it's an accidental regardless of whether it's a 5, m7, sus4... or whatever
right?
I agree that some of it is inconsistent. And that can be confusing or misleading. But that's how it developed & is used as the industry standard.
Originally Posted by: WhuneI mean... so what happens when you have an F# diminished Chord?[br]or a Bb augmented?
It seems like using sharp and augmented interchangeably is just silly.[br]They're NOT the same thing.[br][/quote][p]An F# diminished chord is rooted on the note F# & has a specific interval formula.
F# - 1st
A - minor 3rd
C - b5th
Bb augmented is:
Bb - 1st
D - major 3rd
G - aug 5th
It depends on the context. The term sharp can refer to a note (identifying a specific pitch by letter) or a scale degree (a specific interval distance from an implied root).
Augmented can refer to a scale degree (a specific interval distance) or a chord quality.
This does help distinguish them. You can have a C# as a note or a chord. You have to specify which. But you can't have a C# augmented note, only a C# augmented chord.
Ergo, you can't have a C # sharp chord. :)
[br]
Originally Posted by: Whune [br]So basically what i'm hearing is that flat being a matter of pitch doesn't really have any place in talking about scale degrees...[/quote][br]The term flat is confusing because it's used in two specific, different contexts.
1. Specific pitch (Ab).
2. Scale degree (b5th).
So this can lead to confusing situations. But, yes, that's the convention.
Originally Posted by: Whuneyeah but that's all just a matter of perspective relative to where you coming from... right? How's that justify calling a scale degree flat/sharp?
Because the 5th is the same interval in both major & minor scales. For scale intervals we reserve the term minor for the scale degrees that are different (3rd, 6th, 7th).
I never use the term minor second. I think it's conceptually misleading. But I have to be aware that other people might use it. And it's pretty easy to understand as long as it's used in the right context.
[quote=Whune]Scale degrees change relative to position;
like a m6 in relation to a 4th; is also a m3 in relation to a 1
Scale degrees don't change. But scale degree terms can also be used as interval distances.
A minor 6th is always 8 half-steps up from the root note of a scale.
And the distance from the 2nd degree of a scale to the minor 7th is always 8 half-steps, otherwise known as a distance of a minor 6th.
But it's always 8 half-steps.
[quote=Whune]but pitch is absolute.
it's an accidental regardless of whether it's a 5, m7, sus4... or whatever
[br]right?
Yes, the note A# is the same note as the note Bb. And that note can be any given scale degree.
hm, lots more for me to research.
i appreciate it.
it really helps to research things in context of questions.
i had a little ah ha about the tritone being the b5
my [selective [OCD]] can more easily tolerate a lone "b" amongst all the nice little numbers and "m"s in that context
(lol)
