Major Chords are 1, 4, 5 Why is this?

Hi:

I just watched the beginner Core 1 program section where Lisa instructs you in Key of XXX: major and minor chords.

I am trying to understand [u]why[/u] the 1, 4, 5 system works for determining major chords for each key. Can you provide more insight, please?

In contrast, I understand why certain minor keys change to a "#minor," as I can see it relates to the positioning of notes on the piano keyboard.

Thank you,
Teri

The chord formula for major keys is:
major - minor - minor - major - major - minor - diminished

That is typically represented with the roman numerals so, that numbers marking the major chords are capital letters and the numbers marking minor/dim chords are in lowercase.

That makes the chord formula
I - ii - iii - IV - V - vi - vii°

In other words I, IV and V chords are always major chords in all major keys.

What becomes to a chord (or a note) being sharp # (or flat b) has nothing to do wheather the chord is a major or minor. Sharp and flat notes are determined by the key in which the song is written.

The notes in a major key follows the formula:
tonic- whole step - whole step - half step - whole step - whole step - whole step - half step (to the tonic one octave above)
For exemple the key of B-major has five accidentials (sharps), the notes of the key are
B - C# - D# - E - F# - G# - A# - B
thus the chords in the key of B-major are
B - C#m - D#m - E - F# - G#m - A#dim - B
The V-chord F# is also sharp.

Hey, Teri! Welcome to GT. ZZSmilieZZ

Originally Posted by: zenbuddhette
I am trying to understand [u]why[/u] the 1, 4, 5 system works for determining major chords for each key. Can you provide more insight, please?

Great question! This tutorial covers that topic in detail.

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=495

These tutorials cover the basic practical applications of the theory.

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=426
https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=427
https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=428

Hope this helps! Please ask more if necessary & best of success!

Thank you for helping me understand music theory, Jarkko and Christopher! I am so grateful and appreciative of your help...
I have a lot to learn; this is a new language ZZWinkZZ.

I am digesting the lessons and will definitely ask if I have more questions.

Thanks again!

Teri

nice explaining.

but how about Minor chords formula? i knew that ( 1-4-5 are always Majors in Key majors.

But how about in the key of Minors? how is the formula looks like?

because, i am stuck with something.

Many thanks

Originally Posted by: Abadez
nice explaining.

but how about Minor chords formula? i knew that ( 1-4-5 are always Majors in Key majors.

But how about in the key of Minors? how is the formula looks like?

because, i am stuck with something.

Many thanks

There are three different minor scales: natural, harmonic and melodic.

A natural minor scale is "easiest" to derive from a diatonic major scale.

The sixth degree of major scale is a root of a relative minor scale.

If we look at the key of C major (-Dm-Em-F-G-Am-B° ) the 6th degree is Am. For the key Am we simply use the same chords, but start from Am.

Then the chords in A natural minor are
Am - B° - C - Dm - Em - F - G

So, the chord formula for natural minor keys is
i - ii° - III - iv - v - VI - VII

To convert a natural minor scale to a harmonic minor scale the 7th degree note of the scale is raised by a half step.
That 7th degree note is present in III, v and VII chords of the scale. Those chords must be altered.
The III chord now has a major 3rd and augmented 5th intervals, the chord is augmented III+
The v chord now has a major 3rd and perfect 5th intervals, the chord is major V
The VII chord now has a a minor 3rd and diminished 5th intervals, the chord is diminished vii°

The chord formula for a harmonic minor key is
i - ii° - III+ - iv - V - VI - vii°

To convert a natural minor scale to a melodic minor scale the 6th and 7th degree notes are raised by a half step.
We need to analyse all the chords, which have either 6th or 7th degree note.
The 7th degree note is the same as in harmonic minor.
The 6th degree note is present in ii°, iv and VI chords.
The ii° chord now has a minor 3rd and perfect 5th intervals, the chord is minor ii
The iv chord now has a major 3rd and perfect 5th intervals, the chord is major IV
The VI chord now has a minor 3rd and diminished 5th intervals, the chord is diminished vi°

The chord formula for a melodic minor key is
i - ii - III+ - IV - V - vi° - vii°


In major keys I-IV-V chords are major
In natural minor i-iv-v chords are minor
In harmonic minor chords are i-iv-V
In melodic minor chords are i-IV-V

Originally Posted by: jarkko.eklund
Then the chords in A natural minor are
Am - B° - C - Dm - Em - F - G

So, the chord formula for natural minor keys is
i - ii° - III - iv - v - VI - VII

Excellent & comprehensive answer, jarkko! Thanks! ZZSmilieZZ

Originally Posted by: jarkko.eklund

Originally Posted by: Abadez
nice explaining.

but how about Minor chords formula? i knew that ( 1-4-5 are always Majors in Key majors.

But how about in the key of Minors? how is the formula looks like?

because, i am stuck with something.

Many thanks

There are three different minor scales: natural, harmonic and melodic.

A natural minor scale is "easiest" to derive from a diatonic major scale.

The sixth degree of major scale is a root of a relative minor scale.

If we look at the key of C major (-Dm-Em-F-G-Am-B° ) the 6th degree is Am. For the key Am we simply use the same chords, but start from Am.

Then the chords in A natural minor are
Am - B° - C - Dm - Em - F - G

So, the chord formula for natural minor keys is
i - ii° - III - iv - v - VI - VII

To convert a natural minor scale to a harmonic minor scale the 7th degree note of the scale is raised by a half step.
That 7th degree note is present in III, v and VII chords of the scale. Those chords must be altered.
The III chord now has a major 3rd and augmented 5th intervals, the chord is augmented III+
The v chord now has a major 3rd and perfect 5th intervals, the chord is major V
The VII chord now has a a minor 3rd and diminished 5th intervals, the chord is diminished vii°

The chord formula for a harmonic minor key is
i - ii° - III+ - iv - V - VI - vii°

To convert a natural minor scale to a melodic minor scale the 6th and 7th degree notes are raised by a half step.
We need to analyse all the chords, which have either 6th or 7th degree note.
The 7th degree note is the same as in harmonic minor.
The 6th degree note is present in ii°, iv and VI chords.
The ii° chord now has a minor 3rd and perfect 5th intervals, the chord is minor ii
The iv chord now has a major 3rd and perfect 5th intervals, the chord is major IV
The VI chord now has a minor 3rd and diminished 5th intervals, the chord is diminished vi°

The chord formula for a melodic minor key is
i - ii - III+ - IV - V - vi° - vii°


In major keys I-IV-V chords are major
In natural minor i-iv-v chords are minor
In harmonic minor chords are i-iv-V
In melodic minor chords are i-IV-V

Thanks a lot.

but as you said:

In major keys I-IV-V chords are major
In natural minor i-iv-v chords are minor
In harmonic minor chords are i-iv-V
In melodic minor chords are i-IV-V

so as i have come to undertsand that all of them are like ( 1,4,5) , it seems to be by converting romans numbers are all the same, which ends as (1,4,5), is that correct?

i tried to understand between the major and minor which is like this :

The major keys as we agreed should be (1,4,5), those chords should be Major. then i started to stair at the minor too and i come up with this:

for Minor keys for example ( B minor ):

Bm - C# Dim - Major - Minor - Minor - Major - Major

So, its some how related in the terms of the form.

but as my above question, can you explain why are these same?

In major keys I-IV-V chords are major
In natural minor i-iv-v chords are minor
In harmonic minor chords are i-iv-V
In melodic minor chords are i-IV-V

----

one more question, im using a website to create music. but i kept looking for (Diminshed) chord. i couldnt find, i found only Bb. is diminshed means the flat?

and thanks a lot in advance.

Originally Posted by: Abadez
But how about in the key of Minors? how is the formula looks like?
[/quote]
The minor scale formula is a series of major, minor & diminished chords. It's the same thing as the major scale except that the chord qualities start on a different degree.

I think if you would study this tutorial it would answer a lot of your questions.

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=495
[QUOTE=Abadez]so as i have come to undertsand that all of them are like ( 1,4,5) , it seems to be by converting romans numbers are all the same, which ends as (1,4,5), is that correct?

All diatonic scales with 7 notes can be harmonized, so there will always be a 1 through 7. The upper case Roman numerals indicate major chords; the lower case Roman numerals indicate minor & diminished chords.

Scales have the order of chord qualities they have because in every case you build a triad chord on each note of the scale, using only notes from that scale.

Give that tutorial a try! ZZSmilieZZ

Originally Posted by: Abadez
one more question, im using a website to create music. but i kept looking for (Diminshed) chord. i couldnt find, i found only Bb. is diminshed means the flat?
[/b][/i]

No. Flat indicates that the note is not a natural. It has nothing to do with indicating diminished. You can have a diminished chord on natural notes, flats or sharps.

Originally Posted by: Abadez
i tried to understand between the major and minor which is like this :

The major keys as we agreed should be (1,4,5), those chords should be Major. then i started to stair at the minor too and i come up with this:

for Minor keys for example ( B minor ):

Bm - C# Dim - Major - Minor - Minor - Major - Major

So, its some how related in the terms of the form.

but as my above question, can you explain why are these same?

In major keys I-IV-V chords are major
In natural minor i-iv-v chords are minor
In harmonic minor chords are i-iv-V
In melodic minor chords are i-IV-V

----

one more question, im using a website to create music. but i kept looking for (Diminshed) chord. i couldnt find, i found only Bb. is diminshed means the flat?
and thanks a lot in advance.

Let me clarify a terminilogy.

A diatonic scale (both major and minor) has seven notes. All the musical alphabets.
In the key of C major the notes are C-D-E-F-G-A-B. The scale degrees of the notes on a scale are marked with arabic numbers 1-2-3-4-5-6-7.

The chords on a diatonic scale are marked with roman numerals. All scales (major and three minors) have numbers one to seven, naturally, as the scale has seven notes.
Major chords are marked with Capital letters, minor chords are in lowercase. V and v are different chords, first one is major and the latter is a minor chord.

In a major scale chords are
I - ii - iii - IV - V - vi - vii°
I, IV and V are all major chords
ii, iii and vi are minor chords
vii° is a diminshed chord

In natural minor scale chords are
i - ii° - III - iv - v -VI -VII
i, iv and v are minor chords
III,VI and VII are major chords
ii° is a diminished chord.


There are four different triad chords.
Major triad has a root note and a major 3rd (four half steps) and perfect 5th (seven half steps) intervals.
Minor triad has a root note and a minor 3rd (three half steps) and perfect 5th (seven half steps) intervals.
Diminished triad has a root note and a minor 3rd (three half steps) and diminished 5th (six half steps) intervals.
Augmented triad has a root note and a major 3rd (four half steps) and augmented 5th (eight half steps) intervals. That chord is marked with a plus +, for exemple A+

Originally Posted by: jarkko.eklund

Originally Posted by: Abadez
i tried to understand between the major and minor which is like this :

The major keys as we agreed should be (1,4,5), those chords should be Major. then i started to stair at the minor too and i come up with this:

for Minor keys for example ( B minor ):

Bm - C# Dim - Major - Minor - Minor - Major - Major

So, its some how related in the terms of the form.

but as my above question, can you explain why are these same?

In major keys I-IV-V chords are major
In natural minor i-iv-v chords are minor
In harmonic minor chords are i-iv-V
In melodic minor chords are i-IV-V

----

one more question, im using a website to create music. but i kept looking for (Diminshed) chord. i couldnt find, i found only Bb. is diminshed means the flat?
and thanks a lot in advance.

Let me clarify a terminilogy.

A diatonic scale (both major and minor) has seven notes. All the musical alphabets.
In the key of C major the notes are C-D-E-F-G-A-B. The scale degrees of the notes on a scale are marked with arabic numbers 1-2-3-4-5-6-7.

The chords on a diatonic scale are marked with roman numerals. All scales (major and three minors) have numbers one to seven, naturally, as the scale has seven notes.
Major chords are marked with Capital letters, minor chords are in lowercase. V and v are different chords, first one is major and the latter is a minor chord.

In a major scale chords are
I - ii - iii - IV - V - vi - vii°
I, IV and V are all major chords
ii, iii and vi are minor chords
vii° is a diminshed chord

In natural minor scale chords are
i - ii° - III - iv - v -VI -VII
i, iv and v are minor chords
III,VI and VII are major chords
ii° is a diminished chord.


There are four different triad chords.
Major triad has a root note and a major 3rd (four half steps) and perfect 5th (seven half steps) intervals.
Minor triad has a root note and a minor 3rd (three half steps) and perfect 5th (seven half steps) intervals.
Diminished triad has a root note and a minor 3rd (three half steps) and diminished 5th (six half steps) intervals.
Augmented triad has a root note and a major 3rd (four half steps) and augmented 5th (eight half steps) intervals. That chord is marked with a plus +, for exemple A+

wow, Thanks a lot, Teachers both of you, you really simplified the idea. specially about the roman numbers. I would definitely go through the lessons about the music theory from the start.

i really, would like to send you my mp3 melody clip, that i come up with after summing up your explaining. and i want to see your firts impression about the melody when someone hears it in the first place.

Can you please, tell the way i can send you that?

Many Many Many thanks

Originally Posted by: ChristopherSchlegel

Originally Posted by: Abadez
one more question, im using a website to create music. but i kept looking for (Diminshed) chord. i couldnt find, i found only Bb. is diminshed means the flat?
[/b][/i]

No. Flat indicates that the note is not a natural. It has nothing to do with indicating diminished. You can have a diminished chord on natural notes, flats or sharps.

many many many thanks teacher Christopher, that was really helpful. <3

I cant show you how much i respect that! .. please have a good time.

Originally Posted by: Abadez
many many many thanks teacher Christopher, that was really helpful.

You're welcome! You are welcome to post audio files in the Listening Post forum.

https://www.guitartricks.com/forum/threads.php?f=23

Originally Posted by: Abadez
wow, Thanks a lot, Teachers both of you, you really simplified the idea. specially about the roman numbers. I would definitely go through the lessons about the music theory from the start.
Many Many Many thanks

You're welcome.

To avoid any misunderstandings, I have to say, I am not a teacher, I'm a student myself.
I'm a prove that these things can be learnt. They are not too hard to understand. There's a certain logic behind it. Two years ago I was like you, eager to learn with lot of questions. Now I know a diatonic scale and triad chords theory. Why it is like it is. Also 7th chord theory is similar to triads, but I don't remember all the chord functions by heart. However, I know how to derive it, if needed. Everything of it is based on interval of thirds, rest is just math. I'm currently learning voice leading, secondary dominant and chord substitution concepts. Increasing my knowledge step-by-step.

I truly recommend every guitar student to go through theory lessons. Christopher has very good roser of lessons.

It is so easy to learn guitar based on shapes and patterns. All the chord shapes and scale patterns can be learnt by heart. Without ever knowing or understanding a what they are. My daughter started taking paino lessons not so long ago, and the music theory was present on almost every practice since the beginning. She is not just memorising the chord fingerings by heart, but instead she is to learn how to create major or minor triad starting from any root, by using intervals.

Originally Posted by: jarkko.eklund

Originally Posted by: Abadez
wow, Thanks a lot, Teachers both of you, you really simplified the idea. specially about the roman numbers. I would definitely go through the lessons about the music theory from the start.
Many Many Many thanks

You're welcome.

To avoid any misunderstandings, I have to say, I am not a teacher, I'm a student myself.
I'm a prove that these things can be learnt. They are not too hard to understand. There's a certain logic behind it. Two years ago I was like you, eager to learn with lot of questions. Now I know a diatonic scale and triad chords theory. Why it is like it is. Also 7th chord theory is similar to triads, but I don't remember all the chord functions by heart. However, I know how to derive it, if needed. Everything of it is based on interval of thirds, rest is just math. I'm currently learning voice leading, secondary dominant and chord substitution concepts. Increasing my knowledge step-by-step.

I truly recommend every guitar student to go through theory lessons. Christopher has very good roser of lessons.

It is so easy to learn guitar based on shapes and patterns. All the chord shapes and scale patterns can be learnt by heart. Without ever knowing or understanding a what they are. My daughter started taking paino lessons not so long ago, and the music theory was present on almost every practice since the beginning. She is not just memorising the chord fingerings by heart, but instead she is to learn how to create major or minor triad starting from any root, by using intervals.

Thats inspiring! ZZSmilieZZ .. Thanks a lot for your advice. and goodjob, i wish good luck for your daughter ZZSmilieZZ

have a good one! <3

Originally Posted by: ChristopherSchlegel

Originally Posted by: Abadez
many many many thanks teacher Christopher, that was really helpful.

You're welcome! You are welcome to post audio files in the Listening Post forum.

https://www.guitartricks.com/forum/threads.php?f=23

Dear Teacher,

I posted my melody in ( Listening post ), but i still didnt hear your feedback.

Thanks ZZSmilieZZ

Question that bugs me:

Why in the minor scale is the first note (relative minor) noted as "i" instead of "vi"? In other words, why 1 instead of 6?

That's because of the scale degrees and functions. A scale always starts with a chord in which key the scale is in.

A major key chord formula I-ii-iii-IV-V- vi- vii dim

A minor key chord formula i- ii dim- III- iv-v-VII

Uppercase means a mjor chord, and lowercase is a minor.

Originally Posted by: billtilghman

Question that bugs me:

Why in the minor scale is the first note (relative minor) noted as "i" instead of "vi"? In other words, why 1 instead of 6?

It's both depending on the context.

For example, in the C major scale, the note A is the 6th note. The chord formed on the 6th scale degree of the C major scale is an A minor chord.

But we are starting with the premise that we are in C. So, the A is the 6th scale degree, so in this context the A minor chord is a vi chord ("minor six chord").

But, if we start with the premise that we are in the key of A minor, then the chord formed on the 1st scale degree is also an A minor chord. But it's the 1st scale degree, so in this context the A minor is a i chord ("minor one chord").