Modes from a different view


dvenetian
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dvenetian
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01/25/2007 9:59 am
When most of us are introduced to the 7 modes that relate to the 7 tones of the Major scale, we memorize the name and scale pattern of each mode by the order in which they follow the root note of the Major scale.
1st (root) Ionian mode, 2nd Dorian mode, 3rd Phrygian mode, 4th Lydian mode, 5th Mixolydian mode, 6th Aeolian mode (Natural minor) and 7th Locrian mode. Many studies use the G Major scale as an example because the patterns can be started and completed on all strings until they repeat again at the 15th fret. Most studies include the key signature and the connection each degree has to it's mode. Example: G Major- Am- Bm- C Major- D Major- Em- F#dim (some classify the diminished degree as minor, some say it's neither Major nor minor). So the modes follow suit, G Ionian, A Dorian (minor mode), B Phrygian (minor), C lydian (Major), etc.....
The modes use all of the same notes as the Major (Ionian) scale, they just start their pattern with a different note, so what's the big deal??
Many players never grasp the concept of incorporating Modal Theory with their style because they view the mode only to the Parent Diatonic scale, not as it's own tonal center and surround it with notes that relate to it.
# 1
dvenetian
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dvenetian
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01/25/2007 1:13 pm
Rather than keeping the modes in order, I prefer to divide them by gender.
Minor modes with the minor scale and Major with Major.
Minor scale modes;
Dorian mode, minor scale with a #6th.
Phrygian mode, minor scale with a b2nd.
Aeolian mode, natural minor scale (not altered).

Major scale modes;
Ionian mode, Major scale (not altered).
Lydian mode, Major scale with a #4th.
Mixolydian mode, Major scale with a b7th.

Notice how each gender share 1 unaltered mode, 1 # and 1 b on both sides.
Take these modes and put them in a parallel key. G Ionian, G Dorian, etc.....
Use G as a tonal center and play the modes with G as a base in your chord structure; G Maj, Gmin7, etc... the possibilities are endless.
Take a look at the Pitch Axis Theory thread and you'll see how they relate.
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Drew77
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Drew77
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01/26/2007 2:24 am
wow this is awesome. I have been playing in the diatonic for a while and have been really bored lately after memorizing all of it and feeling like I had no where to go. This idea is so simple that I am amazed I haven't figured it out yet. I guess in a way I have been adding notes to scales to make them more interesting but I didn't ever have the theory behind it.

I just wanted to thank you guys for this series of threads. And rest assured you certainly broke at least one player out of his box. :D thanks.
# 4
dvenetian
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dvenetian
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01/26/2007 9:10 am
It's an awesome feeling when something clicks. Keep staring at it and the flood gates will open, bringing your playing to a new level that wasn't there before. It will also allow you to see music the way the players who influence your style or groove even though you may not come close playing like them right now. Getting comfortable with your new ideas is crucial for the ability to play them with consistancy. Feeling is what makes theory come to life. It allows you to improvise your style without having to think about it, it's already there and just flows from your hands.
Say that Satriani
is a big influence (He is to so many and that will never die) You would notice that Satch
loves the Lydian mode and structured a lot of awesome riffs around it.
Notice when playing the Lydian mode that the Major Pentatonic scale is laying there just waiting to be played as well.
# 5
dvenetian
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dvenetian
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01/27/2007 1:42 am
The Mixolydian mode is popular by demand in many genres due to it's dominate nature and close relationship to the Major (Ionian) scale.
Many players are introduced to modes by their connection with the major scale. Not to ignore the introduction, let's make the connection and then cut the umbilical cord so that we understand how the intervals were conceived.
Let's use the C Major scale for the example. The Mixolydian mode is commonly referred to as the fifth mode of the major scale. It is also referred to as the dominant mode. Why? In C Major, the G note is the fifth interval (AKA the dominant note). So the C Major scale consists of C-D-E-F-G-A-B. To create the intervals for the Mixolydian mode we need to match the notes it's coming from before we can release it on it's own (create it's DNA so to speak) Starting from the Majors fifth interval we get G, so we create a G Major scale, G-A-B-C-D-E-F#. We're 1/2 step off (sharp) from the match, but that's the DNA for the Major scale. So to make the match the Mixolydian is going to have to step in and lose 1/2 of a finger for it's DNA card and then it's free to go. Reviewing the DNA between the Major scale and the Mixolydian mode is the Mixolydian had flatten it's 7th interval by 1/2 step to receive it's identity in the Major's. Forget the notes, the Mixolydian modes DNA is 1(root)-2-3-4-5-6-b7 and it's Major. All that for 1/2 step? It almost sounds exactly like the Major scale from the same root note. Yes, but when it's used over a dominant chord progression, ie; A7.........etc.. It stands alone. More of Mixolydian's talents next post.
# 6
dvenetian
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dvenetian
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02/01/2007 10:00 am
The Mixolydian mode gets a lot of attention with many Blues players, due to it's savvy presence and the ability to play well with others. If you like the style of SRV, than this modes for you. Stevie loved it for the Major 3rd improv that flavored his style. After all it is a Major interval with a dominant flare. With that established, let's take a look at one of the most popular scales used in Blues, the Blues scale. This slightly altered scale derives from the minor pentatonic scale by adding a b5 to the intervals.
Example: minor pentatonic scale = 1-b3-4-5-b7 (W+h-W-W-W+h-W)
The Blues scale (minor): = 1-b3-4-b5-5-b7 (W+h-W-h-h-W+h-W)
So the Blues scale took the 5 tones from the minor pentatonic and added a b5 passing tone, creating a 6 tone minor scale. Many players beat this scale to death by using it in almost every direction possible, after all it is limited in tonality even with the added passing tone thrown in.
To spice things up a little, some of the Legends began to merge some scales together, creating a hybrid scale so to speak it fit their style and offer more options to choose from. The intervals came from combining the Mixolydian mode and the Blues scale together and naming it the Mixo-blues scale.
Wait a minute, mixing a Major and a minor together????? Yup.
This combination brings 9 tones to the table, not to mention the minor and Major 3rd along with the minor 7th. (some studies refer to the Mixo-blues as a 7 note scale, but I say why not use them all since they're available).....
The Mixo-blues scale = 1-2-b3-3-4-b5-5-6-b7 (W-h-h-h-h-h-W-h-W).
I'll post a few chord progressions that work well with this hybrid scale, but I'd better pick up ol' trusty and jam first not to mis-post something.
# 7
Drew77
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Drew77
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02/01/2007 4:14 pm
yeah, thats one thing I don't really get is chord progressions. I mean I know how they are formed and I know how they fit but what if you are using multiple scales from a single root? Does that change th chord progression? Do you have to change the scale you are playing with every chord change or just if it changes key? I have not yet started playing with other musicians, but I will be shortly if I can find any, but I just don;t feel comfortable with the whole progression thing. I got major and minor chords down fine, its just I don;t know how all those other much more interesting chords fit into the equation and how I can write melodies and solos over them... maybe I am over complicating it?


Edit: OH I think I got it. So a Major 7th progression is just a normal progression with 7th chords intead of the normal ones. so the order of major and minors is the same and the V chord is a dominant 7th? am I write. can 7th chords be mixed into other progressions or do you have to stick, I mean i have tried mixing more interesting chords into standard major and minor prog. but it is really hit or miss and I miss most of the time. Is that changing the key, does playing over a Major-7th prog. change the scales you use?

I was just looking at a 7th progression and realized who much more simple it is then I thought. However I still don't fully understand how to use it.
# 8
dvenetian
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dvenetian
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02/01/2007 9:11 pm
One simple way to look at progressions is by their harmonic intervals (notes played together) and how they relate to each other. Since this thread is focused on modes we'll use a modal progression as an example. Let's use a two chord progression, making it easier to see a nice fit.
Here it goes...... FMaj////GMaj////FMaj////GMaj.......... At first glance you could play F Ionian////G Ionian////, etc.......... But there's got to be an easier way to compliment the progression and focus on highlighting the notes as the progression changes.
FMaj = 1-3-5 (F-A-C) GMaj = 1-3-5 (G-B-D)
Let's look at the F Ionian mode = 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 (F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E)
All of the notes fit except for that damn 4th interval (Bb) and it's not even used in the FMaj chord!!!!!!! That 4th interval would need to be # from Bb to B and it would work for both chords. Let's try again this time using the F Lydian mode = 1-2-3-#4-5-6-7 (F-G-A-B-C-D-E) Hey that works!!!!!!! Many players would argue and say you could just use the C Major scale and it would work the same way, but I view it differently. The progression begins with FMaj and moves up a Major 2nd to GMaj giving the progression it's own entity. Modal progressions usually use 2 or 3 chord structures and resolve to the root chord so it remains the tonic or home chord of the mode emphasized.
Try a ________ mode and combine a minor/Major progression:
Dm7////Dm7////FMaj7////CMaj7............... What mode would fit here?
# 9
Drew77
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02/01/2007 10:46 pm
C Ionian? This is were I have issues. Maybe I just need to spend more time memorizing the notes of scales and then it wouldn't take me so long to figure this stuff out...

The only note C Ionian i mising is Eb in the Dm7 chord. Maybe there is a better mode, I couldn't find one. it have to be like...


C-D-Eb-E-?F?-G-A-B... too many... Should I just be paying attention to the chords as I-V-VII or Should it be I-III-V-VI like I am now, because that doesn't seem to work. The actual order is I-V-VII-III (the order ascending anyway If that matters at all...) so I don't really know how you go about matching something up to this...
# 10
dvenetian
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dvenetian
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02/02/2007 1:19 am
Originally Posted by: Drew77C Ionian? This is were I have issues. Maybe I just need to spend more time memorizing the notes of scales and then it wouldn't take me so long to figure this stuff out...

The only note C Ionian i mising is Eb in the Dm7 chord. Maybe there is a better mode, I couldn't find one. it have to be like...


C-D-Eb-E-?F?-G-A-B... too many... Should I just be paying attention to the chords as I-V-VII or Should it be I-III-V-VI like I am now, because that doesn't seem to work. The actual order is I-V-VII-III (the order ascending anyway If that matters at all...) so I don't really know how you go about matching something up to this...

The Dm7 chord = 1-b3-5-b7 (D-F-A-C)
The FMaj7 chord= 1-3-5-7 (F-A-C-E)
The CMaj7 chord= 1-3-5-7 (C-E-G-B)
Yes, all of the notes are in C Ionian, but will that be the best choice to compliment the progression? In my opinion, no. My focus is to emphasize that minor 7th chord to the max!!!!!! Notice how the b3 note in the Dm7 chord is the 1st note of the FMaj7 chord and the b7 note is the 1st note of the CMaj7 chord along with the 5th note of the FMaj7 chord. With that in mind I would look at the D Dorian mode = 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7 (D-E-F-G-A-B-C). Notice how the intervals follow suit.
So my choice would be the D Dorian mode.
# 11
dvenetian
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dvenetian
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02/03/2007 1:26 pm
[QUOTE=dvenetian]
The Dm7 chord = 1-b3-5-b7 (D-F-A-C)
The FMaj7 chord= 1-3-5-7 (F-A-C-E)
The CMaj7 chord= 1-3-5-7 (C-E-G-B)
Yes, the D Dorian mode = 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7 (D-E-F-G-A-B-C).

Something I would like to point out from the reference above are the intervals. Notice how the notes from the chords Leap Frog over the notes in the Dorian mode. D then jump over E, etc........... They follow the notes in the chords. Notice the interval differences from each chord. Remember the Dorian mode is a minor mode, so when improvising over a chord progression it's important to listen to the intervals for the best solo.
Example: Look at the FMaj7 chord, the notes fit in the Dorian mode but it's important to remember it's a Major 7th chord and that 7th interval tends to leave you hanging if you try to end a measure on it. This 7th note is commonly referred to as a leading tone because it wants to resolve on it's root. Try it, play the Ionian (Major scale) 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 and stop. That 7th tone will want to go home to make it sound complete. Now play the Aeolian (Natural minor scale) 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7 and stop. It's important to choose the tones that compliment the tonal center rather than just ripping along on any ol' note because it's in key, if you want to really shine.
# 12
kennyp46
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kennyp46
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02/22/2007 12:07 am
So to put it in simple terms, if i learn the five positions of the major (ionian) and natural minor (aeolian) and then group them as major and minor modes, i won't have to memorize the other modes as long as i remember which note is # and which is b in each of the other modes
...don't criticize what you can't understand. Your sons and your daughters are beyond your command. Your old road is rapidly agin'.
# 13
dvenetian
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dvenetian
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02/22/2007 6:49 pm
Originally Posted by: kennyp46So to put it in simple terms, if i learn the five positions of the major (ionian) and natural minor (aeolian) and then group them as major and minor modes, i won't have to memorize the other modes as long as i remember which note is # and which is b in each of the other modes

In simple terms, it's best to learn the intervals that factor the make up of the mode. This will determine whether it is a Major or minor mode by the Major or minor intervals in it's make up.
Example: Let's say a song uses a chord progression of B, C, D, F#, and G power chords with B as the Tonal center of the song. When we first look at the intervals these chords make up, we notice that there are only two possible modes that these intervals are comprised from. The Phrygian and the Locrian modes. When we look closer we notice that the Locrian mode Intervals require a b5th (F) which is not in the progression, so that leaves us with only one possible mode that the Chord progression fits in; The Phrygian mode. This progression fits The B Phrygian mode. The progression also allows for the E and A chord to be used as well because they are intervals of the B- Phrygian mode.
This would be an example on how you would express the use of a mode to make it sound like it's own and not just a spin off from G Major (Ionian).
# 14
dvenetian
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dvenetian
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02/22/2007 8:13 pm
Back to the Mixolydian mode and it's common use in the Blues.
Here's an example of using three different Mixolydian modes in a standard three chord A-Blues progression; A7, D7 and E7 using A Mixo, D Mixo, and E Mixolydian modes. Notice that the Mixolydians strong beats are just Arpeggio's of the chords in A-Blues. (the other notes used in the progression are considered "Passing Tones" or weak beats)
A7 Mixo
e-------------------------------------------------------
B-------------------------------------------------------
G-------------------------------------------------------
D-----------------------------7-5-4---------------------
A------------------------------------7-5-4--------------
E-------------------------5-----------------7-----------
Play 4 times

D7 Mixo
e--------------------------------------------------------
B--------------------------------------------------------
G-----------------------------7-5-4----------------------
D------------------------------------7-5-4---------------
A-------------------------5-----------------7------------
E--------------------------------------------------------
Play 2 times, then back to A7 mixo and play 2 times

E7 Mixo
e--------------------------------------------------------
B--------------------------------------------------------
G-----------------------------9-7-6---------------------
D------------------------------------9-7-6--------------
A--------------------------7----------------9-----------
E-------------------------------------------------------
Play 1 time, back to D7 mixo and play 1 time, then back to A7 mixo and play 2 times.
Then start from the beginning again. I'll post a turn-around and finish to the progression next time.
A fingering suggestion for all three patterns would be from start to finish as follows. Start with 2nd finger, so 2--4-2-1--4-2-1--4. Hope that makes sense.
Have fun
# 15
dvenetian
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dvenetian
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03/03/2007 4:53 am
Originally Posted by: dvenetianBack to the Mixolydian mode and it's common use in the Blues.
Here's an example of using three different Mixolydian modes in a standard three chord A-Blues progression; A7, D7 and E7 using A Mixo, D Mixo, and E Mixolydian modes. Notice that the Mixolydians strong beats are just Arpeggio's of the chords in A-Blues. (the other notes used in the progression are considered "Passing Tones" or weak beats)
A7 Mixo
e-------------------------------------------------------
B-------------------------------------------------------
G-------------------------------------------------------
D-----------------------------7-5-4---------------------
A------------------------------------7-5-4--------------
E-------------------------5-----------------7-----------
Play 4 times

D7 Mixo
e--------------------------------------------------------
B--------------------------------------------------------
G-----------------------------7-5-4----------------------
D------------------------------------7-5-4---------------
A-------------------------5-----------------7------------
E--------------------------------------------------------
Play 2 times, then back to A7 mixo and play 2 times

E7 Mixo
e--------------------------------------------------------
B--------------------------------------------------------
G-----------------------------9-7-6---------------------
D------------------------------------9-7-6--------------
A--------------------------7----------------9-----------
E-------------------------------------------------------
Play 1 time, back to D7 mixo and play 1 time, then back to A7 mixo and play 2 times.
Then start from the beginning again. I'll post a turn-around and finish to the progression next time.
A fingering suggestion for all three patterns would be from start to finish as follows. Start with 2nd finger, so 2--4-2-1--4-2-1--4. Hope that makes sense.
Have fun

After completing the quoted progression, here's a turn-around and completion to the progression:
Turn-around:
E7 Mixo
e--------------------------------------
B--------------------------------------
G-----------------------7----6--------
D---------------6----9---------9------
A------------7------------------------
E-------------------------------------

Finish:
A7
e-------------------------------------
B-------------------------------------
G-------------------------------------
D-------------------------------7-----
A-------------------------------7-----
E-------------------------------------

Using this post will show the Interval connection to Modal Theory.
You can use this theory to recognize Interval relationships between modes to create interest with Chord progressions and intro's to key changes over time by studying the relative patterns.
Good Luck.
# 16
dvenetian
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dvenetian
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04/30/2007 12:04 pm
Many players wonder how to improvise when playing modes, thinking that they are limited by the modal pattern and must play all of the notes to make the mode sound correct.
Here's a couple of examples on how to improvise and flavor up your solos while remaining intact with the mode you're expressing.
We'll use the E Phrygian mode, which is a minor mode, as an example. The notes are; E-F-G-A-B-C-D
A great way to grasp onto this is to start out simple. Since we are using a minor mode, let's turn our focus to the minor Pentatonic scale. The notes of the E minor Pentatonic are; E-G-A-B-D
Now the D minor Pentatonic; D-F-G-A-C
And the A minor Pentatonic; A-C-D-E-G
All these notes relate to the notes in the E Phrygian mode. This can be a great help when trying to decide what chords fit best in a progression. We can see that Em, Dm and Am all work. What about Fm? No, it has an Ab. F Major? Yes, it has F-A-C. Is there a better fit that would include the Tonic from E Phrygian? Yes, FMaj7 has F-A-C-E. Any others? Yes FMaj9 has F-A-C-E-G and FMaj13 has F-A-C-E-G-D.
Try playing an FMaj7 and notice how it wants to resolve to Em.
I would like to point out another connection in regard to the FMaj7 chord structure when played at the 1st fret position. Notice how it is just an open Am chord with F as the Root. Even though the open A string is the 3rd of the F Major chord, it is not played (Deadened) by most, as not to emphasize a possible Am overtone from the F root note.
Next let's look at the E Phrygian and the E Aeolian modes, which are both minor modes.
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Drew77
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Drew77
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05/01/2007 1:38 am
This newest post is very helpful. Thanks again for putting this stuff up here. It's nice to hear someone actually talk about applying theory rather than having to read five pages about it and then not really knowing how to take it into my playing, this thread is great. Please keep going. I've been wanting to get into jazz playing but it seems kinda daunting and I don't really know where to start as far as improvising and coming up with interesting chords and such. I can play in one key or mode but switching while playing is something I don't really understand how to do, particularly while improvising and progressions and stuff it just doesn't sound smooth. I suppose I should find some chord that has notes from the former key and the new key to use as a sorta bridge between the two? An example of a jazz progression that changes key would be great just to kinda see how its done. I wish my ear was better then, maybe this stuff would be easier.
# 18
dvenetian
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dvenetian
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05/01/2007 7:14 am
Originally Posted by: Drew77This newest post is very helpful. Thanks again for putting this stuff up here. It's nice to hear someone actually talk about applying theory rather than having to read five pages about it and then not really knowing how to take it into my playing, this thread is great. Please keep going. I've been wanting to get into jazz playing but it seems kinda daunting and I don't really know where to start as far as improvising and coming up with interesting chords and such. I can play in one key or mode but switching while playing is something I don't really understand how to do, particularly while improvising and progressions and stuff it just doesn't sound smooth. I suppose I should find some chord that has notes from the former key and the new key to use as a sorta bridge between the two? An example of a jazz progression that changes key would be great just to kinda see how its done. I wish my ear was better then, maybe this stuff would be easier.

Glad you got something from it.
To understand how to make smooth transitions with a progression when changing keys, you will benefit greatly if you understand "The Circle of Fifths". If you're struggling with any part of the Circle theory, list them and I will try to shed some light on the subject. It will also help with training your ear.
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Byron Marks
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Byron Marks
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06/06/2007 12:28 am
I've been playing for quite a while now but am still wondering how to really use the modes and what chord to play certain modes over. I feel kinda stupid about it but for some reason, I never put it together....
# 20

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