Question about hum-cancelling configurations

Well, a few questions actually.

1) Is the effectiveness of a humbucking type of arrangement compromised by placing the pickups further apart (e.g., my understanding is that positions 2 and 4 in a strat are basically a parallel wired humbucker with the coils seperated)? Is this essentially as hum-cancelling as a true "Humbucker" style pickup?

2) If so, are the hum-cancelling properties of this arrangement compromised by using different types of single coil pickups (e.g., a "hot" pickup in the bridge position, a default strat pickup in the middle position, and a Burns tri-sonic in the neck position)?

3) Do you even need to have the RWRP pickup near the strings? I have read that to cancel the hum, you just need the coil....the magnet is superfluous. This makes sense to me in that the magnet is there to allow metal strings that move through it's field to generate electrical current, whereas it is the wire wrapping that acts like an antenna to pick up 60 cycle that is there independent of any magnet. This makes me wonder if you could bury the 2nd coil in the electronics cavity of the guitar (rather than placing it under the strings) and still have a perfectly effective hum-cancelling arrangement - one that retained the sound of a true single coil since the 2nd coil was not generating any signal (just noise)?

Thanks

Originally Posted by: dlwalke

1) Is the effectiveness of a humbucking type of arrangement compromised by placing the pickups further apart (e.g., my understanding is that positions 2 and 4 in a strat are basically a parallel wired humbucker with the coils seperated)? Is this essentially as hum-cancelling as a true "Humbucker" style pickup?[/quote]

The pickup placement or position has nothing to do with hum cancelling. Positioning is the result of either being near or under a harmonic node (Strats), available space, traditional design inertia.

Positions 2 & 4 wired out of phase was a happy accident discovered after the fact. Now days you can easily find other solutions to hum cancelling on single coils. Positions 2 & 4 are now simply used in most cases for their distinctive timbre (the "Strat quack").

Originally Posted by: dlwalke

2) If so, are the hum-cancelling properties of this arrangement compromised by using different types of single coil pickups (e.g., a "hot" pickup in the bridge position, a default strat pickup in the middle position, and a Burns tri-sonic in the neck position)?

I know very little about those pickups. But if I understand correctly, they are single coil pickups with the standard hum that comes with any single coil.

[quote=dlwalke]

3) Do you even need to have the RWRP pickup near the strings? I have read that to cancel the hum, you just need the coil....the magnet is superfluous.

For example:

https://www.ilitchelectronics.com/product/bpncs-fender-stratocaster/

I personally just use Dimarzio HS3s or HS4s. I also have a set of Fender N3 noiseless. There are many other types of hum cancelling single coils on the market as well.

https://www.dimarzio.com/pickups/hum-canceling-strat/hs-3

https://www.fralinpickups.com/product/strat-split-blade/

https://www.ehx.com/products/hum-debugger

Hope this helps!

Arghh. I tried twice to use the fancy shaded quote function but each time my response just disappeared when I hit the submit button. Then I tried using old school arrows to indicate quotes but it didn't like that either. Now I am going to try just using italicized font to indicate quotes and will cross my fingers.[br] [br]The pickup placement or position has nothing to do with hum cancelling. Positioning is the result of either being near or under a harmonic node (Strats), available space, traditional design inertia[br] [br]I think I need to clarify what I meant. I don't mean position with respect to the fretboard but rather, position with respect to each other. So my understanding is that when you use toggle switch positions 2 or 4 on a strat, you are basically re-creating a humbucker with the exception that the two single coils of a humbucker are right next to each other (and wired in series) whereas the two single coils on a Strat are obviously a few inches apart from each other (and wired in parallel). So I was wondering if seperating the individual coils reduces the effectiveness of hum cancelling at all. Interesting to know however that the placement with respect to the fretboard (and bridge and nut) is intentional with respect to harmonic nodes.[br] [br]Positions 2 & 4 wired out of phase was a happy accident discovered after the fact. Now days you can easily find other solutions to hum cancelling on single coils. Positions 2 & 4 are now simply used in most cases for their distinctive timbre (the "Strat quack").[br] [br]Hmmm, when I have watched videos of people who have installed a phase switch on their guitar, I have generally not preferred the sound of the out-of-phase position. But you're saying that that is the default for the Strat's two pickup combination settings. So you are basically choosing between hum vs quack? (I'm talking about an off-the shelf Strat, not one with special pickups, etc.). [br] [br]I'm surprised. As per my earlier question, I had thought that when selecting two single coils on a Strat (i.e., toggle positions 2 or 4), you are essentially re-creating a traditional humbucking pickup (e.g., as found on a Gibson LP) except for the fact that they are wired in parallel as opposed to series. But if that's correct, why doesn't a traditional humbucker pickup sound quacky? [br] [br]In response to "are the hum-cancelling properties of this arrangement compromised by using different types of single coil pickups (e.g., a "hot" pickup in the bridge position, a default strat pickup in the middle position, and a Burns tri-sonic in the neck position)?"[br] [br]you wrote[br]I know very little about those pickups. But if I understand correctly, they are single coil pickups with the standard hum that comes with any single coil.[br] [br]Again, I think I need to clarify what I meant. I'm not asking about those specific pickups per se. Rather, I'm asking if one gets the best hum cancellation when using two single coil pickups of the same type as opposed to a combination of pickups (selector positions 2 or 4) with different output levels or frequency responses.[br] [br]There are several options like that & other clever devices to cancel the 60Hz hum of a single coil. For example: https://www.ilitchelectronics.com/product/bpncs-fender-stratocaster/[br] [br]Cool!!

Originally Posted by: dlwalke

Arghh. I tried twice to use the fancy shaded quote function but each time my response just disappeared when I hit the submit button.[/quote]

That happens to me sometimes, too. It's a drag! I typically copy my replies to the clipboard. On longer posts I just type them in Notepad, then copy-paste. Takes a few extra seconds, but very much worth it when the Captcha software goes wonky.

Originally Posted by: dlwalkeI think I need to clarify what I meant. I don't mean position with respect to the fretboard but rather, position with respect to each other.[/quote]

Ah ha! Gotcha. That was my misunderstanding.

I don't think the distance or placement has any effect on it. As long as the 2nd coil (or hum cancelling tech) is in the circuit somewhere in or on the guitar, then it's good to go. Remember the Strat's 3 original pickup selector switch was only a 3 way to accomodate the 3 pickups. The out of phase setting was serendipity!

Of course, to clarify positions 2 & 4 have the quack timbre because of their location, due to their relative positions.

Originally Posted by: dlwalkeHmmm, when I have watched videos of people who have installed a phase switch on their guitar, I have generally not preferred the sound of the out-of-phase position.[/quote]

No worries. Lots of people don't. :) I use it less than 1, 3 & 5. But 2 & 4 do have their uses.

[quote=dlwalke]

But you're saying that that is the default for the Strat's two pickup combination settings. So you are basically choosing between hum vs quack? (I'm talking about an off-the shelf Strat, not one with special pickups, etc.).

In essence, yes. You are "stuck" with those alternatives. But that's kind of definition by non-essential. After all, you choose a Strat because of it's overall attributes: the distinctive timbre & design (body, neck, scale length, etc.). It's not as if you pick a Strat because you WANT hum. :)

Many people that use the standard Strat pickups don't use enough gain to make it an issue. Or when they use gain or volume the overall band sound covers it enough to make it a non-issue.

[quote=dlwalke]As per my earlier question, I had thought that when selecting two single coils on a Strat (i.e., toggle positions 2 or 4), you are essentially re-creating a traditional humbucking pickup (e.g., as found on a Gibson LP) except for the fact that they are wired in parallel as opposed to series. But if that's correct, why doesn't a traditional humbucker pickup sound quacky?

That is due to the physical placement of the pickups. There is a slight phase cancellation that happens on 2 & 4 on a Strat because of the distance between the pickups. Not an electrical phasing, but a physical acoustic phenomenon.

Interestingly, I've heard some 2 humbucker Gibson style guitars that had coil taps on both humbuckers. And the option to engage both pickups, with both coil tapped down to single coil gets a similar result. Because the pickups are physically separated by enough distance!

[quote=dlwalke]Again, I think I need to clarify what I meant. I'm not asking about those specific pickups per se. Rather, I'm asking if one gets the best hum cancellation when using two single coil pickups of the same type as opposed to a combination of pickups (selector positions 2 or 4) with different output levels or frequency responses.

That's a good question, but beyond my knowledge. My best guess is that it does not matter as long as the electrical circuit cancels the hum. But of course it might be an issue timbre-wise matching pickups if they are sonically in the circuit & not simply used as dummy coils.

This article has a little history of the 5 way switch.

https://www.fender.com/articles/tech-talk/sounds-aplenty-the-stratocaster-pickup-selector-switch

Hope that helps! Fun topic. :)

Excellent. Thanks Chris. Interesting stuff!