How many scales are in a mode?

well - what i was explaining was the origin of the modes - there were no sharp of flat notes at that time. only ABCDEFG - thats about it. like major and minor had special sounds to them, so did the other modes. the use and meaning has changed a bit since the first days though.

Originally posted by Jolly McJollyson
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Digit
Then it goes B to C, which is B-C (B# and Cb don't exist). that is what's called a half step. And so on and so forth.

dont mean to be picky.. but B# and Cb DO exist. --> enharmonic exchange! and it makes a difference especially when talking to a good violin player. or when playing with winds. a great violinist will tell you, that he fingers a f# differently than a Gb . why? chromatic and diatonic tunings sound different (Todays Tuning)

Logically a B# is the same as a Cb. but in some cases it is important to talk of a Cb when you mean a B. there are even situations where you have to add two b´s (Cbb = A#) or #´s (there is a special sign for it though). but you harldy ever will need this unless you are a jazzer or a die hard classical musician. for that funny complication of things you can thank our ancestors who decided, after they discovered the other halftones (apart from bc and ef) NOT to make it logical and name the notes ABCDEFGHIJKL but addin those funny lil signs.

[Edited by Azrael on 10-10-2003 at 01:19 AM]

Originally posted by Azrael
for that funny complication of things you can thank our ancestors who decided, after they discovered the other halftones (apart from bc and ef) NOT to make it logical and name the notes ABCDEFGHIJKL but addin those funny lil signs.

[Edited by Azrael on 10-10-2003 at 01:19 AM] [/B]

You would net a pretty big staff to fit all those notes on, would make for some hard note reading. Maybe our ancestors were on to something.

do you know how the staff developed?

first off peeps where writing little signs on top of the lyrics to indicate APROXXIMATELY how to sing them. those signs where called "Neumen". those signs where mor like an indication for rythmics than for melody. then, after a while (i´ll leave away all the years and names this time - just wanna give a short survey) someone drew a horizontal line as an index for pitch. some "notes" where on the line, some where above, some below. of course this was also not very pricise. then, one beautifull day guido d´arezzo worked his way towards a five line system where it was easier. you could write a not on or between the lines,thus indicating its pitch. but then someone discovered, that you can divide the intervalls to get halftones that work perfectly aswell in music. but what now? the keys on the ancient "pianos" where all white.. there were only five lines in the note system... where to put these "new" tones? knowing that most of this developement took place in monastaries, you can imagine that those fellas did hardly want to change something that has been there for ages. so they searched for other solutions. the black keys on the keyboard (they somehow look less important then the white ones, dont they?) and the "b" and "#" and the diminished and augmented intervalnames. why easy when there is a difficult way? *LOL*

Originally posted by noticingthemistake
Hahaha. @ azreal's first post. I can only laugh at that since my new found ethic towards griphon. "lol"

Second Az, you sure do know your history. I have been reading a bit on the subject but haven't gotten it stamped in the noggit just yet. On the subject of hypo modes, I have found several different explainations. All seem to be legit in their own way but one seems really simple and easy to distinquish. Since I have had some people ask about them, I'd like to have your take on it if you would.

* The simplest and easiest was an explanation that hypo-modes are easily used by playing a mode (say D Dorian) and start the melodic phrase on the fifth being A. So then the finalis would work out to be D, the plagal note of A aeolian. So if you were to play a tune starting on A and ending on D, it would be A hypo-aeolian.

This seems alittle more modern for some reason but it reasons with the ideas of starting a tune of the fifth rather than the tonic. Simply by renaming the fifth as the first, and the old first becomes the new fourth. Sorry if that's hard to understand. Anyways your thoughts on this would be appreciated since you seem to know more about this than I do.

well.. believe it or not - a Hypo mode is nothing more and nothing less than going 4 notes down from any given mode. is somkind of paralell mode. not anything too special so to speak and also not of any mega-importance. Hypo meand "under".
an example:
G A B C D E F G
C D E F G A B C

First row is C Lydian - Finalis G
Second row is HypoLydian - Finalis G

Originally posted by Azrael
First row is C Lydian - Finalis G
Second row is HypoLydian - Finalis G [/B]

Hmmm. I agree there is no great importance to hypo-modes now but maybe a concept to learn from it. They clearly made a point in having both so it seems somewhat important to understand why. As for C lydian's finalis being G, I think your mistaking. Finalis refers to the resolution, in C lydian it would have to end on C. Otherwise it would be a different mode. But starting on C and ending on G is different, and I'm sure you've heard that these hypo- modes are also referred to as Plagal. Well the plagal cadence is IV-I, and G is the fourth (IV) under C. Make sense? I think this is the key in understanding that hypo and regular modes are different. If not, it is quite a concept and makes perfect sense to me.

Man this is making my head hurt!

I keep telling my self that if I understood it a little better I would be able to imagine thinking of it when composing a solo!

Originally posted by Dr_simon
Man this is making my head hurt!

I keep telling my self that if I understood it a little better I would be able to imagine thinking of it when composing a solo!

Doesn't know whether to hand Doc a beer or a tylenol. "lol" Just compose dewd, your tunes are cool so your doing something right.

Love comments like that though, makes me feel like I have some evil power.. MUAHAHAHA :D Call me doctor X.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 10-10-2003 at 04:19 PM]

Awwwww shucks
(blushing)

nono dude - the FINALIS is the last (and also first) note of a mode

since when you are starting on a c major scale the mixolydian mode starts on G - so the finalis in c mixolydian is G - not C

[Edited by Azrael on 10-12-2003 at 07:22 AM]

Originally posted by Azrael
nono dude - the FINALIS is the last (and also first) note of a mode

since when you are starting on a c major scale the lydian mode starts on G - so the finalis in c lydian is G - not C

You have the lydian mode and the mixolydian mode mixed up dewd. ;) In C major the lydian (4th mode of the major scale) mode starts with F (FGABCDEF) not G, that's Mixolydian. Your right modes like lydian are referred to as authentic modes, because there finalis is the lowest note in the scale. i.e. C lydian's finalis would then be C. Modes that are hypo, the finalis is the fourth note in the scale, or plagal. i.e. C hypo-lydian is G,A,B,C,D,E,F,G. As you can see C is the fourth note in the scale.

Back to what I was saying about starting a tune on the fifth above the finalis (or fourth below). In the case of C hypo-lydian that would be G. This makes sense because G is the first note in the C hypo-lydian scale, also makes sense when you think of half plagal cadences. Hypo-modes are truly apparent in half plagal cadences (I-IV), where the finalis is the fourth. Yes they are rare, but you can see where this all works out and has some benefits.

One more thing, a tune written in C hypo-lydian would have a key signature of C major. Although the tune would start on G. Do the opposite, start on C and end on G and you have G mixolydian. If the play C lydian and end on G, that’s just G major. Remember the rule of it's not where you start but where you end, whether it's diatonic or modal. You see this abundantly clear on the modal side in Jazz.

After reading the first sentence in that last paragraph, it’s easy to see why hypo-modes were soon forgotten after the invention of the major scales. C hypo-lydian and C major have the same notes and same finalis. The concept is the you start of the G instead of the tonic, C. A concept still used today but the understanding where it came from is lost.

Ending thought.

C major : starts on C , ends on C
G major : starts on G, ends on G
C lydian : starts on C (or G), ends on C, (in G major)
C hypo-lydian : starts on G, ends on C (in C major)

whoops - my bad