simple mode question

B7, Em7, A7, Dma7 is simply a cycle of 5ths. Nothing more or nothing less, in key or out of key, regardles of quality of chord. Understanding where the dominants come from is the key to success. Otherwise, I agree for the most part. There are, to me, 2 chords I or i,a place to start, a V, a place to go to, and a i or I, a place to end. There are many variations, but it stills boils down to I or i and V.

"The Lydian Dominant is also a Mixolydian with a #4(just a note)." This statement is simply untrue. I've been trying for hours to make it true or to fit the rules. You can come close to lydian dominant by altering the true Dorian with a #4, not Mixo, this becomes a Dorian #11 or #4. (A maj scale is the dorian to B, another way to say this, is B is ii in the key of A or 1 whole step below the root.) You can also play A melodic minor, this gives you a Dorian b9 or combine both. This confusion always arises from not understanding mode construction. A mixo #4 conflicts with our example of B7. Not a dominant 7th, but a maj 7. Dorian is always ii except in Harmonic minor.
iv in Harmonic minor. There is no true mixolydian in Harmonic minor. Lydian Dominant and Mixolydian #4 are distinctly two different scales.

[Edited by griphon2 on 02-09-2003 at 05:14 PM]

Originally posted by griphon2
B7, Em7, A7, Dma7 is simply a cycle of 5ths. Nothing more or nothing less, in key or out of key. Understanding where the dominants come from is the key to success.

I agree. I was just showing the use of modulation, cause chris had a different chord progression and I was explaining how the idea behind it works. Since we were talking about the lydian dominant, I used that one as an example to get to a major key. The first chord doesn't fit with a D maj scale. The roman numerals would be VI7 - ii - V7 - I, and everyone knows the 6th(VI) in a major scale is minor(vi), the dominant chord also does not fit. Thats the point I was trying to get acrossed, that and the lydian dominant being used. It actually works quiet well when used that way. Maybe you need more chords before that B7 to get it.

Originally posted by griphon2
There are, to me, 2 chords I or i,a place to start, a V, a place to go to, and a i or I, a place to end.

Actually, you should try starting with the V chord. It works quiet well, giving the song a sense of started of with a powerful chord. Beethoven's 5th Symphony starts on the V. Just a suggestion.

The Lydian dominant is a Mixolydian #4 scale, also. As far as I can see anyways.

Take a C lydian dominant scale.
E:------------------
B:------------------
G:------------2-3-5-
D:------2-4-5-------
A:--3-5-------------
E:------------------

Now a C Mixolydian...
E:------------------
B:------------------
G:------------2-3-5-
D:------2-3-5-------
A:--3-5-------------
E:------------------

Now sharp the 4th...
E:------------------
B:------------------
G:------------2-3-5-
D:------2-4-5-------
A:--3-5-------------
E:------------------

Looks right to me. If I missed something let me know.

These following simple rules or tricks will always work in most circumstances. I recommend doing the paperwork. Understanding these rules, will give any serious guitarist a very clear understanding as to how modes work in American or blues oriented music. Some of the following ideas break traditional logic. All can be started from the third fret, ONLY! Play a simple G bar chord as background or loop.

Play a major scale from:

Ionian - Root (for G play Gmaj scale) I

Dorian - b7 or whole step down from root (for G play Fmaj scale) ii

Phyrgian -m6 above the root (M3 below the root) (for G play Ebmaj scale) iii

Lydian -5th above the root (for G play Dmaj scale) IV

Mixolydian - 4th above the root (for G play Cmaj scale) V

Aeolian - m3 above the root (M6 below the root) (for G play Bbmaj scale) vi

Locrian -1/2 step above the root (for G play Abmaj scale) vii

A C lydian dominant is a G melodic minor (from C if you want to look at it that way). Or a G maj scale with a b3rd from the 5th of C7. Always. Lydian is always IV.
Or the major scale from the 5th of the chord. The melodic minor from the 5th of the chord is the lydian dominant.
This is the simplest way to find parent scales on the guitar. These are all lydian type scales.

[Edited by griphon2 on 02-09-2003 at 06:08 PM]

Originally posted by griphon2
A C lydian dominant is a G melodic minor (from C if you want to look at it that way). Or a G maj scale with a b3rd from the 5th of C7. Always. Lydian is always IV.
Or the major scale from the 5th of the chord.

Yeah, lydian is the IV when your thinking with the major scale primiarly in mind. My point is the lydian scale itself is a completely different scale and it has no relationship with the major scale what so ever. I know how much you hate Roots of scales, but you have to look at like that. Tonality is the key, a lydian scale sounds different from a major scale. Same with the lydian dominant and the melodic minor. They may have the same notes, and I know you know this. If you play something in C major, then play it in A minor. It sounds different. All scales act differently in the same way. So if your saying lydian is always IV, your actually playing a major scale(or at least thinkin in terms of it).

The lydian dominant is the same way, if it's a IV it's the subdominant of the melodic minor. When actually the lydian dominant scale is called that for three reasons; one is the root can be written as a dominant chord.

Take C lydian dominant.
C D E F# G A Bb
C E G Bb = dominant chord

The second reason, is because of the #4 which is a recognizable part of the lydian mode. The flat 7th is there from the dominant purpose(root).

There is also another dominant chord in there. D F# A C.

And last, the reason you said. The lydian mode is always a IV in a major scale. But the scale itself (lydian dominant)doesn't act as a IV, it has it's own set of chordal structure arrangement. ( I II iiio ivo v vi VII+ )

Here's the melodic minor: i ii III+ IV V vio viio

I know alot of theory teachers and books have this all screwed up. Simply because modern ideas on modes is that they only exist within there diatonic scales. Now, culturally we are a prodominantly major/minor oriented; the true use of modes is hardly un-opened.

The way you find scales on the fretboard is absolutely correct (still think it's alittle harder, but hey... :) ). I did something like that when I started, if I needed to find a melodic minor scale. I would just play a minor scale and raise the 6th and the 7th. Or easier, play a major scale and just flat the 3rd. Now that I've been playing for sometime, I just know them uniquely by there pattern. You shouldn't have to think of a different scale to find another. Too confusing, when it's so simple.

I don't have any real problems with this logic. I rarely write or see or play pure modes. Nowadays, I rarely play pure scales. I used this system years ago, so I wouldn't have to do tons of paper work to figure this out. In time you learn and quickly memorize the sound and fingering. Chords, intervals and tonal centers are visual on the guitar. This is a backdoor method without a lot of manual labor, like you would do on the piano. I always hated Trig and Calculus because of the long winded verbage. It is just easier to me, to get to the point and the result. I don't much care about keys. Music is much like a watercolor wash and collage. Music moves in a cycle, whether the type, popularity or the music itself. I extract what I need for the situation I'm in. Your example plus one: F#7 B7 Em7 A7 Dma7#11. You can play an entire D scale through this progression. I would just add just two notes to the scale, IF I wanted to. (A#, D#) It would sound perfectly legit and logical, either way.
As an excercise, all guitarists should be able to play the cycle of 4ths and 5ths in dominants in one position. A very enlightening excercise.

Maybe I came off as disagreeing with you. Actually I wasn't, it's just when you said lydian is always IV. Which is true, but it's misinterpeted when it comes to seperating it for the melodic minor. Alot of people when they first learn modes, and I seen millions of questions just on this forum, think that modes are the same as the major scale. They don't understand and are confused by their function, and why there are even modes to begin with. Most trash them, even one of my theory teachers did until I explained to him what possibilties they open up.

A tip!
When you write:

Dorian - b7 or whole step down from root (for G play Fmaj scale) ii

Say "for G (dorian) play the Fmaj scale starting with G". It's alittle more direct to the point. Cause it sounds like playing the F major scale from F, is just like the G dorian. That's getting them mixed up.

I myself don't use modes or scales much either in the sense of complete composition. I use them more as an understanding of a chord progression and what kind of different flavors I added/or can add. I follow my ear, but I know when I harmonized a chord with a particular scale. And later I want to bring it back in an interlude/bridge, my understanding of what I did makes it that much easier. The basic composition is always easy, but sometimes you wanna go back and doctor it up a bit, put stuff in , take stuff out, whatever.

Originally posted by griphon2
Your example plus one: F#7 B7 Em7 A7 Dma7#11. You can play an entire D scale through this progression. I would just add just two notes to the scale, IF I wanted to. (A#, D#) It would sound perfectly legit and logical, either way.

Actually you can do any number of things with that chord progression. If you followed your ear, when you came up with that chord progression, and then harmonized over it using your ear. Say you noticed you played a melodic line in lydian dominant over the A7. Later you want to bring that back in a extended bridge, you play that same melodic line over a chord progression A7 D#dim Em. Then start a new part with Dmaj7#11. Whatever. The understanding is the key guided by the ear.

I noticed this with my theory teacher cause he was struggling and I asked him what was up. He had written a harmony over a chord, and he want the get that particular sound again when he brought back that chord. But he didn't want to use the same notes. Thats what I explained to him, and it worked.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 02-10-2003 at 02:30 PM]

Cool, D#dim7, pragmatically, is a altered B7. B7b9.