Barre chord question


faith83
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If I lift my ring finger and play an open G string on a 5th string barre chord, does that turn the barre chord into a 7th in the same way that an open G turns A into A7?


"You can get what you want or you can just get old." Billy Joel

# 0
snojones
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YES. That is the real advantage of a guitar over other instruments. If a fingering works in one place, it should work in others as well. Piano makes it easier to find all the notes, but you have to learn how to play in each specific scale in each specific key. A G scale pattern on piano keyboard is diffrent from a C scale pattern (a diffrent arrangement of black and white keys). You can't just move the G major pattern over a few keys and expect to play a major scale. On guitar the opposite is true. Move any pattern up or down the guitar neck and you can play in any key with that pattern.

It also goes for all barr chords like a bar G7, that is the real utility of using barr chords. Any open chord with a properly placed barr can be moved up and down the neck and sound that chord properly. So, for example, if you place a barr under an A7 chord pattern and slide it up the neck 2 frets, you have a B7 chord. Go 2 more frets and you have a C#7. It really helps to think of barr chords in this way. All they really are is open chords with a pointer finger filling the role of a Capo. This in fact goes for all the open chords if you can figure out how to properly hold the Barr in the right place.

I hope this is helpful. It is difficult for me to explain without demonstration. Nothing like the inter webz to show the limitations of written language in explaining techincal details that would be simple in person.


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# 2
faith83
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Thanks, and yes, I get all of that (although I did tear my hair out initially thinking that "anywhere on the neck" meant any string, any note on the neck, not just any fret...). I was just checking in case there was some hidden rule about 7ths that I didn't know, since I didn't recall it being mentioned when Lisa brought up the barre chords in Fundamentals 2.


"You can get what you want or you can just get old." Billy Joel

# 3
ChristopherSchlegel
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Originally Posted by: faith83

If I lift my ring finger and play an open G string on a 5th string barre chord, does that turn the barre chord into a 7th in the same way that an open G turns A into A7?

[p]If you mean what I think you mean, then yes. But, assuming you mean this A major shaped barre chord, with this fingering.

|--5--(i)----|

|--7--(p)---|

|--7--(r)----|

|--7--(m)--|

|--5--(i)----|

|------------|

Lifting your ring finger would cause the G string to ring at the 5th fret and that would be a minor 7th in relation to the root note, resulting in a dominant 7th chord.

|--5--(i)----|

|--7--(p)---|

|--5--(i)----|

|--7--(m)--|

|--5--(i)----|

|------------|

Chord tones:

|--5--(5)---|

|--7--(3)---|

|--5--(7)---|

|--7--(5)---|

|--5--(1)---|

|------------|

I cover the basics of movable dominant 7th chords in this tutorial.

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=499

Hope this helps!


Christopher Schlegel
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# 4
faith83
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It does, thank you Christopher, as always, for your excellent coaching. It sure sounds like a 7th chord, but I wanted to make sure there wasn't some secret rule about sevenths that affected things...


"You can get what you want or you can just get old." Billy Joel

# 5
snojones
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You mean like sevenths were on the Deans Werner's "Double Secret Probation List"for music ? Would that make them the like members of the "Deltas"? Let us not forget the immortal words of Senator Blutoski "Was it over when the Germans bombed Prearl Harbor?! HELL NO!"


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# 6
faith83
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Originally Posted by: snojones

You mean like sevenths were on the Deans Werner's "Double Secret Probation List"for music ? Would that make them the like members of the "Deltas"? Let us not forget the immortal words of Senator Blutoski "Was it over when the Germans bombed Prearl Harbor?! HELL NO!"

LMAO!!!!! I don't trust the guitar fretboard, not as far as I can throw it. It's still crazy troll logic to me, compared to the nice, orderly, sensible piano keyboard.


"You can get what you want or you can just get old." Billy Joel

# 7
JeffS65
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Originally Posted by: faith83
Originally Posted by: snojones

You mean like sevenths were on the Deans Werner's "Double Secret Probation List"for music ? Would that make them the like members of the "Deltas"? Let us not forget the immortal words of Senator Blutoski "Was it over when the Germans bombed Prearl Harbor?! HELL NO!"

LMAO!!!!! I don't trust the guitar fretboard, not as far as I can throw it. It's still crazy troll logic to me, compared to the nice, orderly, sensible piano keyboard.

My first wife (married, widowed, remarried) once said when she was starting to learning guitar, that the piano was so linear and sensible. I can't say I'm a whiz at piano but I did see her point. Then I pointed out that Keith Richard wouldn't look half as cool with a keytar around his neck. I won that debate


# 8
snojones
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Sticking up for guitars and delving further into the rediculious....

Keytars an exercise in failed ideas. Nothing cool about giving up an entire hand of fingers in an attempt to look cool. Just try playing with your teeth or behind your back!! Ever seen a pianist throw their ax into their amplifier druing a performance?! That and the fact it doesn't even look like a guitar! Wow, look at me I just gave up half my available notes and I still can't do a windmill strums like Pete Townsend. Isn't that the very definition of a poser?! enough said.

Not to say the piano players are anything but cool. Ray Charles, Elton, Billy, Carol King, and Jerry Lee never lacked for cool. Yes, the piano has the C scale very clearly laid out and it has a very cool percussive sound. It is easier to learn the names of the notes because there are just about half as many choices and they are laid out in black and white. There is a reason they teach university throry classes around the piano.

However just try and transpose anything into the key of F# or Bb, on the fly and you will see where the strength of the guitar neck comes into play. Piano requires an entirely new fingering to deal with varrious diffrent musical keys. Talk about confusing..... I fear there are scarry theory based double sharps and flats lying in wait just beyond the first measure of that project. Dean Wormer would be proud.


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# 9
faith83
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Originally Posted by: snojones

Ever seen a pianist throw their ax into their amplifier druing a performance?!

Actually, yes. Billy Joel, 1987, Moscow. ;-)

"I've trashed that keyboard a dozen times or more during a show, but I do it once in the USSR and it's an international incident." --BJ

The keytar, though. Um... that's a hard pass, LOL!


"You can get what you want or you can just get old." Billy Joel

# 10
snojones
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I stand corrected.....clearly that makes piano way cooler....

Was that BJ concert in moscow right after the wall fell?!


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# 11
faith83
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Originally Posted by: snojones

I stand corrected.....clearly that makes piano way cooler....

LOL! It's not the size of the pencil, it's how you write your name. Anything can be cool if the right person is playing it. Proof of that is that Billy actually looked pretty cool playing the accordion on Downeaster Alexa...

Accordion... precursor to the keytar... hmmm...


"You can get what you want or you can just get old." Billy Joel

# 12
snojones
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So was that concert in moscow right after the wall fell?!


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# 13
faith83
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Way before the wall fell, which was 91. But during Glasnost, certainly.

Billy was the first US rock star to play the Soviet Union with a full concert band. JD being the first American entertainer to perform there in 85, but it was just him and a guitar and, of course, he was not a rocker, but a folk singer. I've often thought it interesting that those are my two top guys... a strange coincidence.

Both of them have concert albums from the USSR, and both are excellent recordings.


"You can get what you want or you can just get old." Billy Joel

# 14
snojones
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That must have been an amazing experience! I clearly remember watching news clips of that show (billed at the first rock band in the USSR) For a brief while, I actually had hope for the world as a result of that show. How long were you there? Did you go on your own or were you part of the band's entourage? (hope I got that spelling?!) What was the crowd like.


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# 15
faith83
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Originally Posted by: snojones

That must have been an amazing experience! I clearly remember watching news clips of that show (billed at the first rock band in the USSR) For a brief while, I actually had hope for the world as a result of that show. How long were you there? Did you go on your own or were you part of the band's entourage? (hope I got that spelling?!) What was the crowd like.

Oh, I wasn't there -- I wish!!! I was a BJ groupie for a summer during his 91 Storm Front tour and have some really fun stories from that time (incliuding the one about getting to be Mrs. Billy Joel for about 30 seconds, LOL), but no, I was not there.

But there is a really really good documentary about Billy's USSR tour that shows a lot of what you're asking about in terms of the crowd. It's called A Matter of Trust: Billy Joel in the USSR and is available on Amazon. It was recently re-edited and expanded. (It also includes the piano throwing incident...)

JD's USSR concert is also available on Amazon and on the JD website. It's one of his best concerts, IMO, though not as magical as Harbor Lights in 95.


"You can get what you want or you can just get old." Billy Joel

# 16
snojones
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Oh well Mrs Billy isn't chopped liver.


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# 17
ChristopherSchlegel
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This thread has taken an interesting turn! :)

I enjoyed these observations:

Originally Posted by: snojones

It is easier to learn the names of the notes because there are just about half as many choices and they are laid out in black and white. There is a reason they teach university throry classes around the piano.[/quote]

This is a real good observation.

Besides guitar, the piano is one of the only instruments on which the arrangement of musical alphabet notes is directly perceivable. Not just easy to see, but possible to see. The percussion family is related to piano (glockenspiel, xylophone, vibes, marimba) & you can see the notes.

But, if you look at brass or wind instruments you see buttons, levers, valves. There are no notes directly visible. The violin family has no frets. So, again, no notes!

The guitar makes it possible to see the notes, but there's a lot of potential confusion because you can play the same note in more than one place.

But this disadvantage turns into an incredible advantage in one aspect:

[quote=snojones]However just try and transpose anything into the key of F# or Bb, on the fly and you will see where the strength of the guitar neck comes into play.

Exactly!

Learn one scale pattern & you know a physical fretboard layout of all 12 possible scales. Learn one chord shape (especially a barre chord) & you automatically know all 12 possible major or minor chords using that one shape.

This is an incredible tactical advantage that I wish more guitar students were aware of. Thanks for calling it out!


Christopher Schlegel
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# 18
faith83
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Lol, yes it has! Thank you for bringing us full circle again, Christopher.


"You can get what you want or you can just get old." Billy Joel

# 19
Herman10
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Originally Posted by: snojones

I stand corrected.....clearly that makes piano way cooler....

Was that BJ concert in moscow right after the wall fell?!

Right after the wall fell there was a big concert from Pink Floyd with lots of big names like Snowy White and Cindy Laupner at the Brandenburger tor in Berlin. Don't know if BJ was there to?


# 20