Originally Posted by: RickBlackerI don't do charity concerts. How much you got?
Damn, that's cold man. And after all we've been thru? I'm hurt, bro!
...so ever since then, I always hang on to the buckle.
Ricks latest toy.
Damn, that's cold man. And after all we've been thru? I'm hurt, bro!
# 1
Originally Posted by: LordathestringsWell done, Rick.
Don't rush the last little bit. Every step is important.
Thanks... Tonight will be a couple of things to do.
1) get the bias set
2) I'm going to go over the entire schematic and wireing diagram one more time
3) if I have time, start working on the checkout procedures.
I'd like it to look a little bit neater, lots of wires everwhere, but, I guess that's part of the character of point to point circuitry.
[U]Ricks Current Mystery Video[/U] - Updated Monday March/02/2015
# 2
Originally Posted by: RazboDamn, that's cold man. And after all we've been thru? I'm hurt, bro!
I know huh?
Na... I'll definitly post some clips. I've got to figure out how to get my new mic working with my podx3. Once I do that, then I can post some clips... Probably within a week I should have my amp up and running, and able to post some pics... Hopefully.
[U]Ricks Current Mystery Video[/U] - Updated Monday March/02/2015
# 3
Originally Posted by: RickBlacker... I'd like it to look a little bit neater, lots of wires everwhere, but, I guess that's part of the character of point to point circuitry.
The advantage of point-to-point is that the distance between the wires reduces the potential for capacitive coupling between different parts of the circuit. If you try to 'tidy it up', you may find that you do more harm than good.
No one will see it, but everyone will hear it.
# 4
Originally Posted by: LordathestringsThe advantage of point-to-point is that the distance between the wires reduces the potential for capacitive coupling between different parts of the circuit. If you try to 'tidy it up', you may find that you do more harm than good.
No one will see it, but everyone will hear it.
Jose Arredondo...best tone maker on earth (VH etc)...Same theory. Shortest path the better, clean layout meant nothing.
# 5
Ummmm.... Yeah.
Don't let anyone tell you that 2 watts is not loud. It's VERY loud.
Got my amp done. Well mostly. It's in test phaze right now. The base amp is done, once it checks out, I'll be adding the effects loop and the extra tube circut, then it will be done.
For checkout, the guy who designed the amp told me to play it full bore for an hour, well, I only had 30 minutes. None the less, i'm running it into a 2x10 cab with Eminence Ragin Cajuns. Cripes man... My ears have been ringing for 15 minutes. Yes, I know.. Protect my hearing. :rolleyes: :)
Lots of different tones in that little monster.
Don't let anyone tell you that 2 watts is not loud. It's VERY loud.
Got my amp done. Well mostly. It's in test phaze right now. The base amp is done, once it checks out, I'll be adding the effects loop and the extra tube circut, then it will be done.
For checkout, the guy who designed the amp told me to play it full bore for an hour, well, I only had 30 minutes. None the less, i'm running it into a 2x10 cab with Eminence Ragin Cajuns. Cripes man... My ears have been ringing for 15 minutes. Yes, I know.. Protect my hearing. :rolleyes: :)
Lots of different tones in that little monster.
[U]Ricks Current Mystery Video[/U] - Updated Monday March/02/2015
# 6
Originally Posted by: RickBlackerUmmmm.... Yeah.
Don't let anyone tell you that 2 watts is not loud. It's VERY loud... :rolleyes: :)
Lots of different tones in that little monster.
The math can be a bit intimidating, but the bottom line is that for playing at 3AM in an apartment without bothering anyone, you're looking at a few [u]milli[/u]watts!
# 7
Originally Posted by: RickBlacker
Got my amp done. Well mostly. It's in test phaze right now. The base amp is done, once it checks out, I'll be adding the effects loop and the extra tube circut, then it will be done.
The further this thread goes, I am increasingly inclined to attempt this myself. Half what you are saying is going over my head (extra tube circuit?) and I found from guitar building, there is no better way to learn about something in detail.
From your description of the volume it sounds like it might be louder than my 5watt VibroChamp, which is Tube, but has DSP effects. Interesting....
...so ever since then, I always hang on to the buckle.
# 8
This is an article by Bruce Egnater of Egnater amps.
Egnater Tech Talk #101
By Bruce Egnater
TECH NOTE #101
WATTS vs VOLUME and other stuff…..There is some confusion about the relationship between watts and volume (loudness). There is much discussion about how this many dB is twice as loud as that many and that many dB is double the power and blah blah .... lot’s of techie rambling but no real world explanations. Let’s say you have a guitar amp with a knob to adjust the power (watts). Now say this amp is 20 watts at its maximum power setting and 1 watt at the lowest knob position.
It would be reasonable to assume that 20 watts should be loud enough to play with the band and 1 watt would be whisper volume. Anyone who has had the opportunity to test this theory has found quite the contrary. 20 watts through a reasonably efficient speaker is quite loud. 1 watt through the same speaker is also quite loud. What’s up with that? Have you ever seen the specs for a 12” speaker? A typical guitar speaker will produce about 95 to 100dB at 1 meter (about 3.3ft) with 1 watt of input power.
Now put 2 or 4 of that same speaker in a cabinet and the output is even higher. What this is saying is that even with a mere 1 watt of power, that speaker will put out the volume about equal to a person yelling. Obviously not “TV watching” volume. To obtain that whisper volume, you might need as little as 1/10 of a watt but…….at that low a volume, most guitar speakers start to sound terrible. In addition, there is a phenomenon that occurs with human hearing that is documented by Fletcher and Munson (two really smart guys) that graphs the way we hear things at different volumes. Look it up on the internet.
The Fletcher/Munson curves show how our ears, at lower volumes, are less responsive to low and high frequencies. That means the quieter you play, the more we tend to want to boost the bass and treble to compensate for our own hearing. Ever seen the “loudness” contour switch on a home stereo? That is what the switch does. It boosts the treble and bass to make it sound better quiet. On a guitar amp you often find knobs for boosting the low and high end in the power amp section. Typically these controls are called Presence for the high end boost and Resonance or Depth or Density (Egnater) for the low end. At low volumes you typically turn those controls up but the louder you play, the more you find you need to turn them down. Fletcher/Munson again.
Because we make guitar amps with variable power (Rebel) and switchable power (Tourmaster and Modular), we get inquires about this all the time. Often players will use one of our amps and it appears that the power cut feature doesn’t do much. Please allow me to explain.
Let’s say you are playing an amp at home or in a music store at relatively low volume. Recall what was said earlier about how little power it really takes to get a fairly loud volume. If you’re playing quiet, you might be using even less than 1 watt to obtain the loudness you’re at. If you have a chance, try this on a Rebel. Play fairly quiet and turn the WATTS knob from 20 watts to 1 watt. What do you hear?
Very little change! Why? Because at that volume you probably are not even using up 1 watt let alone 20 watts. Sort of like driving a car at 5MPH. It doesn’t matter if the engine is a 100HP or 500HP, you are still only going 5MPH and using very little HP to maintain that speed. Same with your amp. To cruise along at low volume requires very little power (watts). Having the extra horsepower (watts) doesn’t make the amp louder when you play at low to medium volume.
Now try this with your Rebel. Set the power to 20 watts, turn the master full up and turn up the gain knob until you start to hear some distortion. It will be loud.
While you’re playing turn the WATTS knob down. You will clearly hear and feel the way less power creates a spongier, lower volume tone. Some players are saying the knob isn’t really cutting the power but is reducing the headroom. Call it what you will, the result of reducing power is more of a “feel thing” than a volume thing. Ultimately the idea is to set it to where you like the sound and be happy…..play your guitar.
While we’re on the subject of the Rebel, there has been some talk about how when panning from the 6V6 tubes to the EL84 tubes, the tone difference is not what some expected. It is believed that by simply changing power tubes you can make a Fender (6L6 power tubes) sound like a Marshall (EL34 power tubes) or a Vox (EL84 power tubes). What you are hearing in the Rebel when you go from 6V6 to EL84 is the real difference in the sound of those two types of tubes. It may not be quite as dramatic as many believe but that is the reality of it. The tonal difference between various types of tubes is more subtle than many believe. A few people have even been disappointed when using the TUBE MIX features because their expectations of what should happen were really not based in fact. What you are hearing in the Rebel is “the truth” about power tubes.
Enough rambling for now. I hope this is interesting and informative stuff. If you are already a member of the Egnater family….WELCOME!! If you haven’t joined us yet, we look forward to having you.
Bruce Egnater
Egnater Tech Talk #101
By Bruce Egnater
TECH NOTE #101
WATTS vs VOLUME and other stuff…..There is some confusion about the relationship between watts and volume (loudness). There is much discussion about how this many dB is twice as loud as that many and that many dB is double the power and blah blah .... lot’s of techie rambling but no real world explanations. Let’s say you have a guitar amp with a knob to adjust the power (watts). Now say this amp is 20 watts at its maximum power setting and 1 watt at the lowest knob position.
It would be reasonable to assume that 20 watts should be loud enough to play with the band and 1 watt would be whisper volume. Anyone who has had the opportunity to test this theory has found quite the contrary. 20 watts through a reasonably efficient speaker is quite loud. 1 watt through the same speaker is also quite loud. What’s up with that? Have you ever seen the specs for a 12” speaker? A typical guitar speaker will produce about 95 to 100dB at 1 meter (about 3.3ft) with 1 watt of input power.
Now put 2 or 4 of that same speaker in a cabinet and the output is even higher. What this is saying is that even with a mere 1 watt of power, that speaker will put out the volume about equal to a person yelling. Obviously not “TV watching” volume. To obtain that whisper volume, you might need as little as 1/10 of a watt but…….at that low a volume, most guitar speakers start to sound terrible. In addition, there is a phenomenon that occurs with human hearing that is documented by Fletcher and Munson (two really smart guys) that graphs the way we hear things at different volumes. Look it up on the internet.
The Fletcher/Munson curves show how our ears, at lower volumes, are less responsive to low and high frequencies. That means the quieter you play, the more we tend to want to boost the bass and treble to compensate for our own hearing. Ever seen the “loudness” contour switch on a home stereo? That is what the switch does. It boosts the treble and bass to make it sound better quiet. On a guitar amp you often find knobs for boosting the low and high end in the power amp section. Typically these controls are called Presence for the high end boost and Resonance or Depth or Density (Egnater) for the low end. At low volumes you typically turn those controls up but the louder you play, the more you find you need to turn them down. Fletcher/Munson again.
Because we make guitar amps with variable power (Rebel) and switchable power (Tourmaster and Modular), we get inquires about this all the time. Often players will use one of our amps and it appears that the power cut feature doesn’t do much. Please allow me to explain.
Let’s say you are playing an amp at home or in a music store at relatively low volume. Recall what was said earlier about how little power it really takes to get a fairly loud volume. If you’re playing quiet, you might be using even less than 1 watt to obtain the loudness you’re at. If you have a chance, try this on a Rebel. Play fairly quiet and turn the WATTS knob from 20 watts to 1 watt. What do you hear?
Very little change! Why? Because at that volume you probably are not even using up 1 watt let alone 20 watts. Sort of like driving a car at 5MPH. It doesn’t matter if the engine is a 100HP or 500HP, you are still only going 5MPH and using very little HP to maintain that speed. Same with your amp. To cruise along at low volume requires very little power (watts). Having the extra horsepower (watts) doesn’t make the amp louder when you play at low to medium volume.
Now try this with your Rebel. Set the power to 20 watts, turn the master full up and turn up the gain knob until you start to hear some distortion. It will be loud.
While you’re playing turn the WATTS knob down. You will clearly hear and feel the way less power creates a spongier, lower volume tone. Some players are saying the knob isn’t really cutting the power but is reducing the headroom. Call it what you will, the result of reducing power is more of a “feel thing” than a volume thing. Ultimately the idea is to set it to where you like the sound and be happy…..play your guitar.
While we’re on the subject of the Rebel, there has been some talk about how when panning from the 6V6 tubes to the EL84 tubes, the tone difference is not what some expected. It is believed that by simply changing power tubes you can make a Fender (6L6 power tubes) sound like a Marshall (EL34 power tubes) or a Vox (EL84 power tubes). What you are hearing in the Rebel when you go from 6V6 to EL84 is the real difference in the sound of those two types of tubes. It may not be quite as dramatic as many believe but that is the reality of it. The tonal difference between various types of tubes is more subtle than many believe. A few people have even been disappointed when using the TUBE MIX features because their expectations of what should happen were really not based in fact. What you are hearing in the Rebel is “the truth” about power tubes.
Enough rambling for now. I hope this is interesting and informative stuff. If you are already a member of the Egnater family….WELCOME!! If you haven’t joined us yet, we look forward to having you.
Bruce Egnater
# 9
Interesting read. So (and not meaning to hijack Rick's thread)...
Does this mean that because Rick is running thru 2 x 10" Celestions that he's getting more volume at 2 watts than I think I am getting from 5 watts running thru an 8 inch "Fender Special Design"?
I think I will try running this weekend thru my Peavey speaker, which is a 10 inch-something inside a 20 watt combo. In theory, I will have a louder output from all the same amp settings, yes?
Does this mean that because Rick is running thru 2 x 10" Celestions that he's getting more volume at 2 watts than I think I am getting from 5 watts running thru an 8 inch "Fender Special Design"?
I think I will try running this weekend thru my Peavey speaker, which is a 10 inch-something inside a 20 watt combo. In theory, I will have a louder output from all the same amp settings, yes?
...so ever since then, I always hang on to the buckle.
# 10
Yo, Razbo...
Running 2 10" Eminence, not Celestions.
And, go for it man... It's a FUN project plus you will learn a lot. The best thing about it for me is that I know I can tweek my amp. :) You have your schematic, you're wiring diagram and all the help you need on the AX84 forum.
If you like, here is my thread over there, I have TON's of pics I took along the way. http://www.ax84.com/bbs/dm.php?thread=409630
Look for the thread called "October Studio Build"
Running 2 10" Eminence, not Celestions.
And, go for it man... It's a FUN project plus you will learn a lot. The best thing about it for me is that I know I can tweek my amp. :) You have your schematic, you're wiring diagram and all the help you need on the AX84 forum.
If you like, here is my thread over there, I have TON's of pics I took along the way. http://www.ax84.com/bbs/dm.php?thread=409630
Look for the thread called "October Studio Build"
[U]Ricks Current Mystery Video[/U] - Updated Monday March/02/2015
# 11
Originally Posted by: RickBlacker
Running 2 10" Eminence, not Celestions.
Damn, I'm not sure, did I just insult you? :D
I have to be honest, the $500 price tag is putting me off a bit.
If I compare it to my guitar built completely from "boutique" parts (StewMac) for $1,000 vs. the complete build materials I've purchased from "variety sources" (specialty wood stores, ebay, etc) for under $300, I'm thinking I could probably go the same route saving a similar 70%. I just have to figure out how to build it first.
...so ever since then, I always hang on to the buckle.
# 12
# 13
It's done actually, I just have some tweeks to make like moving some wires around to get rid of some squeels here and there.
It's a kickn' little 2 watt amp!
It's a kickn' little 2 watt amp!
[U]Ricks Current Mystery Video[/U] - Updated Monday March/02/2015
# 14
Originally Posted by: RazboInteresting read. So (and not meaning to hijack Rick's thread)...
Does this mean that because Rick is running thru 2 x 10" Celestions that he's getting more volume at 2 watts than I think I am getting from 5 watts running thru an 8 inch "Fender Special Design"?
I think I will try running this weekend thru my Peavey speaker, which is a 10 inch-something inside a 20 watt combo. In theory, I will have a louder output from all the same amp settings, yes?
Couple things:
Speaker efficiency makes a big difference here.
A 5 Watt amp will not sound much louder than a 2 Watt amp driving the same speaker cab.
The efficiency rating mentioned by Bruce Egnater is a spec based on using the same conditions. That is, 1 Watt rms at 1 kHz, with the SPL (Sound Pressure Level) measured 1 meter from the front of the speaker.
Right away, that can tell you that a more efficient speaker is going to move more air at the same power than a less efficient speaker.
As a general rule of thumb, an SPL change of 3 dB is just barely noticeable. As it happens, 3 dB also represents a factor of 2 change in power (x2 or x1/2).
With the same speakers, the difference in apparent loudness between 2 Watts and 5 Watts is ... not much at all. If the 2 Watt amp happens to have speakers that are 3 dB more efficient than the ones in the 5 Watta amp, then its more like comparing a 4 Watt amp to a 5 Watt amp. Which is an insignificant difference, [u]in terms of how loud it is[/u].
The amp you choose should be one that sounds good to you. Don't worry about how much power it claims to have.
If you really need more reach in a club, mic your amp into the PA. Everyone will like that better than if you use a bigger amp, that's hard to mix.
# 15
Originally Posted by: RickBlackerIt's done actually, I just have some tweeks to make like moving some wires around to get rid of some squeels here and there.
It's a kickn' little 2 watt amp!
Good on yer! :cool:
# 16