New Trend

Originally Posted by: schmangeSorry, but I don't believe in God anymore than the tooth fairy or Santa Clause. And the only thing religion seems to be good for is giving priests the opportunity to molest children and fanatics to wage wars.

Just goes to show us how well informed you are :rolleyes:

Now now, boys. I'd hate to see any bitterness on the forums as a result of a few passing comments.

Now kiss and make up.



[Take note of my cleverness.]

strat-man,

Your post shows a complete and dangerous lack of comprehension. Islam is a religion, not a terrorist group. The media classifies Muslims as "terrorists," "highjackers" and "kidnappers." So why would anyone even look at Islam?

David Karesh was a Christian, shall we ban all Christian momentous?
When you compare all of Islam to these terrorists, you essentially say every Sunday clothed bible reading Christian is a Branch Dividian fundamentalist. The linking of such actions to Islam or the Qur’an is incorrect. Rather, such inhumane actions clearly contradict the teachings of Islam - just as the bombing at Oklahoma City by Timothy McVeigh and the killings that occurred at Abraham Mosque, Hebron - Philistine by Dr. Baruch Goldstein clearly contradict the teachings of Christianity and Judaism, respectively.

That's the trouble with a religious argument of any stripe; each side can throw out thoughts and beliefs and NONE of them can be proven. Religion (or lack thereof) is based on faith. For those who feel that there is no God (BTW, the sky bully comment did make me laugh) also base that argument on, ta da, faith. They place their faith in science, man and technology. Some base their faith in the intelligence of man. Sorry but I see waaaay too many examples of how grand mans intelligence is on a daily basis to put much faith there.

Religion, as so many have pointed out here, lays out certain tennants to follow which, even if you dispute the existence of God, are solid, fundamental points for a good and decent soceity. Like that lil' gem from from the Hard Rock Cafe' "Serve All, Harm None'. (Or was that the House of Blues?? I dunno, the point is made though...)

Islam and Christianity? Well, I am a Christian so that's where my thoughts, belief and heart lie. Always will. But I am also smart enough (barely) to understand that labeling anything is dangerous. Horrible acts have been committed under the guise and banner of religion. ALL religions. There are no religions that I know of that have snow white hands. So many in the past have had the kill, condem or convert mentality. I have never agreed with that and I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of Christians and followers of Islam would be willing to say the same.

Anything organized is open to being corrupted by either a) fanatics or b) charlatans. Priests fondling children, strapping a bomb onto your chest and running into a crowded bus stop or standing on a stage somewhere in a powder blue suit with a pompadour, tearing up and begging for cash so you can run to a hotel with a 17 year old hooker and a snuff can full of blow...show me where God is in those scenerios?

But the above does not deter me from believing in God. Again, this is just me. Every man will find his God, his belief, his religion on his own terms whether he chooses to call it a religion or not.

The final irony is that we will not know the truth until we're dead and then we won't be able to tell anyone about it! :)

Finally, as stated, why come here to a guitar forum to preach? There are plenty of blogs, chat rooms and forums out there specifically designed for this sort of thing. You won't make many friends here with religious vitriol (kinda like what I just did above, huh?). This is a friendly neighborhood of people who share the love of music and the guitar.

Just my two cents.

Jolian...I think its time you post a guitar-related thread (sorry if you have done,I just signed in and havent looked around.

So far all I have seen from you are posts pushing Islam, and whilst I realise that Islam is unfairly represented in the media, I dont think here is the place to try and collect converts.

I am not religious, and I certainly dont mind people who are, just dont shove your beliefs in my face...I dont mind you offering them tho.

to start with, no one attacked Islam on this fourm, but you came charging in to defend it...it just seems odd...I honestly wouldnt mind if someone were to close this thread...and then we could all go on,along with our new friend Jolian and discuss guitar-related topics...as that is what binds us.

Originally Posted by: Andrew Sa...I honestly wouldnt mind if someone were to close this thread...and then we could all go on,along with our new friend Jolian and discuss guitar-related topics...as that is what binds us.

I thought about it, and because I took the time to think about it, I have not closed this thread. This part of the forum is set aside for topics that are not necessarily guitar-related. So as long as the dicussion remains civil, all members are welcome to chime in.

Perhaps Jolian could help to answer my question from the "Touchy Subject" thread:

Originally Posted by: LordathestringsCould a Muslim please explain to me how rioting, burning churches, and killing a nun serve to repudiate the claim that Islam fosters violence?

I think the quality of any group, be it a club, a government, or a religion, can be assessed by how that group deals with those who disagree with them. This twisted concept that makes it acceptable in the sight of Allah to kill anyone whose belief is not sufficiently 'pure' is the same insanity that prevailed during the "Reign of Terror" after the French Revolution. Then, as now, it had nothing to do with purity - it was an assertion of power under the threat of violence. The killer mullahs are simply modern Robespierres in turbans. And just as despicable.

And to continue that line of thought, there seems to me to be plenty of outrage from Muslims at the Pope for saying things, for the president (among others) using the term Islamic Facist, and profiling at airports, but why no protests in the streets against terrorist acts? I'm sure selective media coverage plays somewhat of a role here, but still I don't think there's been enough public outcry from within...especially from those (as Jolian) who claim violence and terrorism is not representative of Islam: if that's so true, the "true" Muslims should be among those most offended and outspoken against these acts, not trying to excuse it by pointing fingers at other religions.

Some translations..

"Now when you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks until you overcome them fully..." (47:4).

"O you who have attained to faith! Fight against those unbelievers who are near you and let them find you adamant, and know that God is with those who are conscious of Him" (9:123).

"Slay the pagans wherever you may come upon them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place..." (9:5).

Lordathestrings

The Christians most likely killed WAY more protestants, Jews and 'Indian's in South America. Also, North Americans killing the natives and all that. Islam also has its extremists. I don't see what's your point.

I personally believe that all the hate comes from the media. Some western are so ignorant and gullible that they allow the media to deceive them. Its always "a suicide bomber killed this many" and "violent Palestinian boys throw rocks" but if we look at the bigger picture its a rock against a tank, apache helicopters, grenades and the list goes on. From this view it is quite simple to see the injustice. Dont forget the situation and justice in Iraq

Things like 9/11 happen daily in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan and only in moslem countrys!!!!!!! only like 10X more inhuman all due to American funds.

---------------------------------------------

I found this in islam-online:

The Holy Quran

Surah 5 AL-Amaidah [5:32]

Whoever kills a soul, unless for a soul, or for corruption done in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one; it is as if he had saved mankind entirely.


Surah 60. Al-Mumtahana

[60:8] - Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just..

[60:9] - Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong..

AL-Amaidah [5:82] Strongest among men in enmity to the Believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the Believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

[5:83] And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognize the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! We believe; write us down among the witnesses.

Originally Posted by: jolianLordathestrings

The Christians most likely killed WAY more protestants, Jews and 'Indian's in South America. Also, North Americans killing the natives and all that. Islam also has its extremists. I don't see what's your point.

Things like 9/11 happen daily in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan and only in moslem countrys!!!!!!! only like 10X more inhuman all due to American funds.

I don't think anyone has said anything different, but your entire argument in support of Islam seems to cite the actions of other faiths in the names of those faiths. There is no room for violence in religion - that's what the Pope was trying to say, and was the subject of outcry. My personal view is that there's no room for religion, but there is certainly no room for violence in it's name regardless of your personal beliefs.

jolian - post something else that isn't about Islam, you saw the name of this site I assume? you're coming across as a bit of a fanatic in my opinion. We are respectful of your point of view, but so far I am at a loss to figure out what point you are trying to make... :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by: zreynoldsp

jolian - post something else that isn't about Islam, you saw the name of this site I assume? you're coming across as a bit of a fanatic in my opinion. We are respectful of your point of view, but so far I am at a loss to figure out what point you are trying to make... :rolleyes:

Absolutely

May i suggest you may find a more captivated audiance at the following site www.islamonline.com :)

Originally Posted by: LordathestringsPerhaps Jolian could help to answer my question from the "Touchy Subject" thread:

Originally Posted by: Lordathestrings
Could a Muslim please explain to me how rioting, burning churches, and killing a nun serve to repudiate the claim that Islam fosters violence?[/QUOTE]



I think the quality of any group, be it a club, a government, or a religion, can be assessed by how that group deals with those who disagree with them. This twisted concept that makes it acceptable in the sight of Allah to kill anyone whose belief is not sufficiently 'pure' is the same insanity that prevailed during the "Reign of Terror" after the French Revolution. Then, as now, it had nothing to do with purity - it was an assertion of power under the threat of violence. The killer mullahs are simply modern Robespierres in turbans. And just as despicable.

[QUOTE=jolian]Lordathestrings

The Christians most likely killed WAY more protestants, Jews and 'Indian's in South America. Also, North Americans killing the natives and all that. Islam also has its extremists. I don't see what's your point..

Pointing out the terrible things done by people who claim to follow one religion can never justify terrible things done by people who claim to follow a different religion. Both groups are wrong. Their actions are seen to be wrong, not only by people of differing faiths, but by clear-thinking followers of the religion in question.

My point is that any religion can be perverted by those who lust for power. Such so-called leaders are the true infidels, misleading thousands of poorly-informed followers in actions that run counter to the faith they claim to profess. Christianity has certainly suffered this torment, and caused others to suffer also. And yet countries founded and built by Christians, on Christian principals, are the only truly free counties on Earth. And the wealthiest. And the most productive. And home to the most advanced technologies. And the major sources of aid given to other countries. The concept that there can be no separation between Islamic religion and Islamic government is an example of how a religious faith can be perverted by those who would impose their will on others who don't know any better. I don't think it is an unrelated coincidence that countries under Islamic rule have such large portions of their populations kept in relative ignorance and poverty. People who are well-fed, healthy, earn a high standard of living, and have a broad education that allows them to compare many points of view, would not tolerate the abuses of power that are routinely accepted in so-called Muslim societies. The part of the world that is now called Iraq was once the cradle of modern civilization. Our mathematics is based upon priciples that were discovered and refined by Arabs who lived in a society that encouraged exploration and examination of all facets of human capability. To see what such a once-admirable civilization has been reduced to...

My question asking how violent mobs can demonstrate the non-violent nature of Islam seems simple enough: If Islam is indeed a religion that promotes tolerance of others who hold different opinions - if Islam is in truth non-violent, then such mobs, and those who cause them to behave like wild beasts, cannot be true Muslims.

The frustration felt by the Muslim Brotherhood is self-inflicted. They cannot persuade mainstream Muslims to join them, because one of their basic tenets is the assumption that anyone whose faith is not sufficiently pure is an acceptable target for violence. Who decides which members are pure, and which members are not pure? The leaders, of course. And who are the leaders? Men who have demonstrated such eagerness to be violent that no one else dares to oppose them! Obviously this is not a group that will appeal to the mainstream of any society, even one born into Muslim traditions. The sad fact is that if a Muslim dies a violent death, their murderer is most likely to be someone who claims to be Muslim.

This is the debate the Pope was asking all religious thinkers to join in. The basis of his position is that religious faith is not something that can be "spread by the sword". He was not supporting the views held by the Emperor that he quoted; merely using that ancient discussion to show that the basic issues have still not been resolved hundreds of years later. And the rioting mobs that were whipped into a murderous frenzy by those who claim to be Muslims, did nothing to convince the world that their beliefs are right, or valid, or in any way good in the sight of man or God.

Lordathestrings

One of the core meanings of Islam is peace. it should be noted that the actions of an individual or a small group do not necessarily represent the beliefs of a particular religion, nor is that religion responsible for such actions.

I was raised as a Christian, and I admit that there is a great deal of hatred and discrimination towards Islam
I've seen and heard it, straight from the mouths of preachers and 'christians'
I, myself, respect and admire Islam, for its perpetual struggle for justice and equal treatment

I believe that many of the so called "Western Christians", have an agenda to destroy and eradicate Islam In the 50's and 60's, westeners targetted communism and regarded it as a threat to the western way of life~fallacy 50 years later, its the same, the only thing that changes is the target

Now, westeners are trying to eradicate Islam, kuz its always stood in the way and been an economic/social/and religious burden for 'christians'

Signs: surveillance of Muslims world wide, "War on Terror aka War on Islam", and the blockade of Islamic movements inside American prisons...the list goes on


The Quran says: God forbids you not, with regards to those who fight you not for [your] faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them; for God loveth those who are just. (Quran, 60-8)

It is one function of Islamic law to protect the privileged status of minorities, and this is why non-Muslim places of worship have flourished all over the Islamic world. History provides many examples of Muslim tolerance towards other faiths: when the caliph Omar entered Jerusalem in the year634 , Islam granted freedom of worship to all religious communities in the city.

Islamic law also permits non-Muslim minorities to set up their own courts, which implement family laws drawn up by the minorities themselves.

The Patriarch invited him to pray in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, but he preferred to pray outside its gates, saying that if he accepted, later generations of Muslims might use his action as an excuse to turn it into a mosque.

As a result of following these kind of teachings, many people have banished racism from their thoughts and actions. You can still see racial harmony today in the mosques of cosmopolitan cities. You will find people of various colors worshipping together, all with equal status before God. Rich or poor, black or white, kind or pauper all line up side by side to worship. No special preference is given to anyone based on color or social status. The leader in a mosque is appointed for his learning in the religious sciences, regardless of skin color. There is no such concept as a 'black mosque' or 'white mosque'. Islam removes such destructive concepts.

zzzzzzz......


Thats a long post, and yet it doesn't appear to say anything.

For racial harmony - come to my house... you can see harmony there most days between white, black and asian guys, and Christians, agnostics, Muslims, Sikhs and Jews. I went to a mosque once out of curiousity, and was not made welcome.... maybe I picked the wrong mosque... Sure, people 'hate' Islam - people hate more or less anything and everything, and Islam is not and should not be afforded any special treatment.

Islam doesn't hold any more of a monopoly on harmony, peace and understanding than it does on violence, destruction and the denounciation of non-believers.

:rolleyes:

The God Delusion

Originally Posted by: zreynoldspzzzzzzz......


Thats a long post, and yet it doesn't appear to say anything.

Islam doesn't hold any more of a monopoly on harmony, peace and understanding than it does on violence, destruction and the denounciation of non-believers.

:rolleyes:

The God Delusion

Well said. Couldn't agree more!

My question is do we believe in the information declared in the following sites or not:

THE TRUTH ABOUT JESUS
http://sultan.org/articles/Jesus.html

Who Was Jesus According to Jesus?
http://www.islaminfo.com/new/jesus.asp

IS THE BIBLE GODS WORD?
http://www.jamaat.net/bible/Bible1-3.html

The Bible - A Closer Look!
http://www.islamtomorrow.com/bible/

The Islamic and Christian views of Jesus: a comparison
http://www.soundvision.com/Info/Jesus/inIslam.asp

Christ in Islam
http://home2.swipnet.se/~w-20479/Christ.htm

Mary & Jesus in Quran
http://www.islamworld.net/

Is Jesus the Same as God?
http://home2.swipnet.se/~w-20479/Samegod.htm

None of the Bible’s Writers Believed That Jesus is God
http://www.islam-guide.com/ch3-10-1.htm

Jesus Will Descend at the End of Time
http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=77

Women in Christianity and Islam
http://www.jamiat.org.za/isinfo/wchristian.html

http://www.jamaat.net/letters.htm

The Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran:

http://www.islampedia.com/ijaz/Html/Scientist_All/Index.htm
http://islamicity.com/science/
http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1.htm

I think the whole "one religion is better than the other" thing is a huge cancer on humanity. That kind of thinking will kill us all very slowly.

Originally Posted by: jolianMy question is do we believe in the information declared in the following sites or not...

No, we don't.

You are entitled to your opinion. 'Who was Jesus according to Jesus?'.... seriously, did the author of the site interview him did he? :rolleyes:

I'm not usually into flaming people, but I'm tempted to break the habit here....

We think that debate is one thing, but posting piles of crap repeatedly is pointless. Make your point Jolian, or better yet, go play your guitar - write a song about Islam and make the chorus catchy.... maybe it'll take over the world... :rolleyes:

:mad:

Personally, I believe in Bugs Bunny...

http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates/alAssadi.htm