Guitar Lessons:
Guitar Tricks
Username:     Password:
Guitar Lessons (855) EZ-GUITAR




Go Back   Guitar Tricks Forum > Open Community ( Visitors Welcome ) > Music Theory
User Name
Password


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-01-2001, 05:16 AM
sherif_shaaban sherif_shaaban is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Port Said, Egypt
Posts: 36
sherif_shaaban has made some friends around here
Send a message via ICQ to sherif_shaaban
out-ok-key chords

Hi all .... I was trying to figure out the chords of Bobby Vinton's song "Mr. Lonely". It's - I think - in B Mixolydian (5th mode of E major). The confusing part was (sorry if the lyrics are not perfect):

E
Now I'm a soldier,
C#m
a lonely soldier
A
away from home,
Am
through no wish of my own

Am does not belong to E major key, but it sounds very good. Is there a 'rule' for using out-of-key chords?

Thanks a lot......

[Edited by sherif_shaaban on 04-01-2001 at 06:19 AM]
__________________
Sherif Shaaban (Dr_Frankenstein™)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-01-2001, 04:32 PM
LuigiCabrini LuigiCabrini is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Ny, Ny, USA
Posts: 207
LuigiCabrini has made some friends around here
No, there are no "rules" for using chords that aren't in the key. In a case like that, the writer just did it because he liked the sound. Is that the whole progression?
Anyway, here are some general ideas about chords outside the key. Sometimes, a dominant chord outside of the key will be used to lead into another chord. An example would be the beginning of Cherokee in the key of Bb: Bbmaj Fm Bb7 Ebmaj. The Bb7 would be called a secondary dominant; it's a dominant chord, but its not the V of the key, in this case it's the I.
That would be an example in jazz. In rock, sometimes a chord progression will be entirely in major chords, whether or not they are in key. How many of you have seen a half diminished chord in rock? Look at punk songs especially for using entirely major chords.
In modal jazz, chords aren't really in progressions. You will often see one chord for 16 or more bars, so when the next chord comes, it need not relate to the first one and is often in an entirely different key. An example would be "So What" which has 2 chords, Dm and Ebm, that are clearly not in the same key.
As for your example, hey, if it sounds good, do it.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-02-2001, 10:16 PM
Bardsley Bardsley is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 731
Bardsley has made some friends around here
Changing the IV from a major to a minor in a progression is actually quite common in pop tunes, I believe the Beatles used it sometimes though I cannot think of an example. I find it is a nice change of feel that can work really well. You should listen to Bob Dylan's Idiot wind, it too is in E major, though the verse starts on an Am chord.
The progreesion goes like this.
Am, B, E, Am, B, E
C#min, G#min, F#min, E
C#min, G#min, F#min, E, G#min, A.
Thus, the verse ends on an A before and starts again on Amin, because there are two verses to each chorus. This is a very nasty technique, as the verse goes on, it feels as if the pain builds up, which is cut by bitterness again by the Amin. It's a pretty nasty song, though very good.
__________________
"Dozens of people spontaneously combust each year, it's just not that widely reported".
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-25-2001, 07:34 PM
James Hetfield Is Jesus James Hetfield Is Jesus is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 86
James Hetfield Is Jesus has made some friends around here
YEah
__________________
JAMES HETFIELD IS JESUS
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-21-2011, 11:28 AM
craigey0 craigey0 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1
craigey0 has made some friends around here
Both on the IV

Its interesting that both these examples add in the minor of the fourth(IV) of the scale - also in close conjunction (immediately after) the 'in-key' IV chord. The reason I picked up on this was I was trying to understand part of Eagles Desparado which goes (something like): G G7 C Cm G Em7 A D7 ( I I(dom7) IV iv I vi(7) II V(dom7) ) - I understood the major second as it's the V of the V (D) which it resolves to. But I couldn't understand the Cm. But like the two examples given it is also the minor on the fourth and follows the major fourth. I wonder if there is anything particularly interesting about this out-of-key chord the minor fourth - as it gets used so much. I understand a bit about extra out-of-key major chords which can sometimes be because they are the V of the V etc but don't understand at all any reasons why minors might be used - except of course they sound good and you can put anything in if it appeals to you. Any thoughts?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-22-2011, 07:34 PM
darkfrett darkfrett is offline
Full Access
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 56
darkfrett has made some friends around here
Out of Key Chords

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigey0
Its interesting that both these examples add in the minor of the fourth(IV) of the scale - also in close conjunction (immediately after) the 'in-key' IV chord. The reason I picked up on this was I was trying to understand part of Eagles Desparado which goes (something like): G G7 C Cm G Em7 A D7 ( I I(dom7) IV iv I vi(7) II V(dom7) ) - I understood the major second as it's the V of the V (D) which it resolves to. But I couldn't understand the Cm. But like the two examples given it is also the minor on the fourth and follows the major fourth. I wonder if there is anything particularly interesting about this out-of-key chord the minor fourth - as it gets used so much. I understand a bit about extra out-of-key major chords which can sometimes be because they are the V of the V etc but don't understand at all any reasons why minors might be used - except of course they sound good and you can put anything in if it appeals to you. Any thoughts?


If it sounds good... it is good.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-26-2011, 02:06 PM
Ben Lindholm's Avatar
Ben Lindholm Ben Lindholm is offline
Guitar Tricks Instructor
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 941
Ben Lindholm eventually gets it mostly right
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkfrett
If it sounds good... it is good.


That is true!

Nice to see a thread like this come to life again after 10 years!!!

I just finished a new tutorial called Tasty Chord Moves, where I talk about both the "Beatles IV minor" move and secondary dominants.

Check em out:

The Beatles IV Minor Move
Minor IV Example

Secondary Dominants
Secondary Reggae

Last edited by Ben Lindholm : 03-26-2011 at 02:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:21 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin® Version 3.0.17
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Guitar Lessons Learn Guitar
© Copyright 1998-2014 GuitarTricks. All rights reserved.


Learn Guitar Online