Spain, Madrid

[chris mood]

Probably the 2nd worst terrorist attack carried out by the suspected Al-Quida (sp?) network occurred yesterday in Madrid, Spain, and I'm shocked to hear how few people I've talked to even new anything about it.

[SPL]

I was almost in tears when I heard about it... :(

[sambob]

Why the hell should I care? It didn't happen in the US.

Spain is such an insignificant country.

[chris mood]

Unfortunately, it seems that many people share your view. The truth is they were attacked for allying with the U.S. and Britian.

[SPL]

Originally posted by sambob
Why the hell should I care? It didn't happen in the US.

Spain is such an insignificant country.

And Americans wonder why the rest of the world hate them so much... :rolleyes:

[Tank_Simmons]

Almost 200 people died in this tragedy and you don't care? Who gives a **** where it happened....human life is still human life, precious and irreplaceable.

Spain is our ally and supporter of the war on terror. An attack on them is an attack on us.....the terrorists attacked freedom itself. Terrorists hate democracies, thriving economies and individual freedoms...and that was what was attacked. To not care about Spain and the loss of human life is downright idiotic and sick.

[sambob]

I guess no one gets it.

[ketsueki15]

obviously no one got it...not everyone is as cold hearted as others...(no names mentioned)

[sambob]

I was poking fun at how most people assume Americans are.

True, I am very cold hearted. But do you surely think that I have that attitude of "If they're not Americans they don't matter"?

Many people DON'T share that view, its just that most US news services don't cover anything that doesn't directly concern the US.

In my newspaper, that particular terrorist attack was a blurb on the bottom of the front page. The headline in my newspaper was an article about one of the grocery stores around here being sold.

If people outside of America are stupid enough to believe that most Americans think that way, then maybe Americans SHOULD have that kind of attitude.

[SPL]

sambob, maybe you should realize that sarcasm does not translate into written language before you write stuff like that... Especially people whose first language is not English tend to take things like that very seriously. Please keep that in mind before you assume that people from outside the U.S. are stupid for not seeing the "humor" in your writing.

[TheWizard]

It is rather true, this country is full of retards


this attack will be on the news once, meanwhile I still hear about how britney spears got married 3 months ago, how jennifer and ben broke up etc. etc. bull**** like that is all 80% of this country cares about, not the problems outside of the country that we are sometime indirectly responsible for

[sambob]

SPL, my post wasn't directed at you, not at all.

Perhaps other people are sick of Americans not caring... well, most Americans are sick of people bitching about things we have no control of.

[Leedogg]

Sam, I understood you right away, but then again I sort of know you from all the times we've chatted in the chat room.

I'm an American and I'm very angry about what happened in Spain. Massive indescriminate killings are about the most sissified way to get your point across that I can think of. I'd like to catch some of these pussies and force them to suffer more than they could possibly imagine. I know this would bring me down to their level or possibly further, but I don't care. Large scale terrorist attacks like these represent an alarming trend for the world to deal with. I couldn't imagine believing in something so fervently and with such conviction that I'd have to indiscriminately kill to get my point across. To borrow a line from PonyOne, If I believed in hell I'd like to see these sick ****s sent there.

[basics]

My two cents: It's war. It's too bad but that's life. I don't care either way. I had to look it up because I hadn't heard about it. I don't tune into any kind of media whatsoever. I just found out yesterday that Jean Christian wasn't the prime minister anymore, 2 months ago! lol. If something like that were to happen in T.O. say, and kill my brother, I'd mourn of course, pledge vengence, and ... start living my life the way I want to instead of how the main forces in my life intend. That really didn't prove any point.

You americans, I wouldn't worry about it either. This is your governments problem, not yours. As it should be with every other other country.

[Dr_simon]

I guess the words democracy and accountability don't really mean very much to you !

Maybe they will if you have children and / or loved ones or even plan on taking on any responsibility at any time in your life.

As for it being some one else's problem, well if some one flies a plain into your wife, child, etc it becomes your problem all by its self, really quickly!

As for picking up the pieces and getting on with it, well that is an admirable statement however, do you not think that it may be better to try and nip the problem in the bud rather than glibly announce to the world that it is "not my problem" or "not my country". These statements will not protect you !

[guitarmanxxxx]

" OUR " World has fallen apart, and only getting worse by the
day.:(
Terrorism has reached every corner of the earth, and its a
matter of time before it reaches every corner of every city.
Maybe not in our life time, but the way it is going I would
not be surprised if it was. How do you stop a fu**ing idiot
willing to die ? Answer= You Cant.
You can catch Bin Laden, Saddam, and all the other leaders of terrorism, but there is always some other sick minded sonofabitch
waiting in line to take his/or her place. Sad, but true. Mark

[TheWizard]

Originally posted by basics
My two cents: It's war. It's too bad but that's life. I don't care either way. I had to look it up because I hadn't heard about it. I don't tune into any kind of media whatsoever. I just found out yesterday that Jean Christian wasn't the prime minister anymore, 2 months ago! lol. If something like that were to happen in T.O. say, and kill my brother, I'd mourn of course, pledge vengence, and ... start living my life the way I want to instead of how the main forces in my life intend. That really didn't prove any point.

You americans, I wouldn't worry about it either. This is your governments problem, not yours. As it should be with every other other country.

see thats a retarded thing to say... yes you can't let these almost daily attacks ruin your life, but thats just disrespectful in my opinion to say "I don't care"

and it's not like people dying in these attacks are government officials so I wouldn't call it the governments problem

[basics]

Man, I don't care. Sue me. Happens everyday, countless times, just this time blown out of proportions because that's what the goddamn government wants you to think. People die, scores of them, unjustified except for when your goddamn enemy happens to nail 200 of them, your government needs to let their people know that they're doing the right thing. Ask me if I believe in propaganda. I do. Boo hoo. Go get your enemy.

... On a lighter note, I don't believe in any causes having to do with ones country. It's just stupid. People are going to scream and yell at me I'm sure for being unattached to things in which they consider important, but so be it. Just a personal opinion, just like your own. I'm not going to appologize but I'm not going to try to shove it down your throat either.

If I were American I'd have the same opinions too i'm sure. ....untouchable by the media and therefore still my own.

[PonyOne]

I think that it's appalling how little outrage there is at events like this, and how little coverage they get. My girlfriend's family is in Israel, and this crap happens every week or two there, though it's usually 15-30 people as opposed to around 200.

This is a very good entry on suicide bombers, it's a hoot while still being inelligent www.rotten.com/library/religion/martyrdom/suicide-bombers/

[chris mood]

I feel what's happening in Isreal is a little different then the events that took place in Madrid and Bali. In Isreal you have fighting going on within the country over territory, the people expect and are prepared (as best that can be, I assume) for these events.

What happened in Madrid, Bali, and N.Y. is well planned out mass murder committed by people from a foriegn land who are not willing to share the planet with people who do not share in there cultural beliefs.

[Yngtchie Blacksteen]

Shit happens.

[Azrael]

Whether the attacks in Spain were carried out by the Basque separatist ETA or by al-Qaeda, they make one thing very clear:

Terrorism cannot be fought by military means.

After the first Gulf War, and particularly after the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, U.S. military analysts concerned themselves extensively with the question of terrorism. An early conclusion was that it is precisely the extreme dominance of the U.S. military that makes potential opponents turn to what is sometimes called "asymmetric warfare" -- i.e., attacks in which the other side also has a chance of inflicting damage. For example, Presidential Decision Directive 62, issued in 1998, says, "America's unrivaled military superiority means that potential enemies (whether nations or terrorist groups) that choose to attack us will be more likely to resort to terror instead of conventional military assault."

The Bush administration's response, involving a tremendous new wave of militarism, new weapons systems, and a newly aggressive posture in the world could not have done more to exacerbate the threat of terrorist attacks if it had been planned that way.

Worse, there has been a shift in the modality of attacks after 9/11. The 9/11 attacks and previous ones by al-Qaeda, like that on the U.S.S. Cole or those on the U.S. embassies in Tanzania and Kenya, were attacks on hard targets, requiring suicide bombers and, in the case of 9/11, a highly sophisticated operation. Furthermore, the targets were ones of obvious political significance; there was hardly a more potent symbol of American economic might and world domination than the World Trade Center. Contrary to popular depictions, at the time al-Qaeda was not simply ravening to kill any American anywhere.

That changed after the Afghanistan war, with a decision made by elders of Al-Qaeda in Thailand in January 2002 to turn more toward soft targets. The first major such attack was the November 2002 Bali nightclub bombing which killed nearly 200. Just as with the Madrid bombing, the targets had no particular political significance: while it is true that Aznar supported the war on Iraq, 90% of the Spanish people opposed it, and they were the victims of the attack.

And thus we are led to the reductio ad absurdum: more military prowess leads to more terrorist attacks, more defense of hard or politically significant targets leads to more indiscriminate attacks on soft targets, and it is simply impossible to defend all soft targets. Today the trains of Madrid. Tomorrow the New York subway?

The progression of events in Iraq under the occupation mirrors this.

Initially, one saw mainly attacks on the U.S. military. It quickly responded by increasing the level of alert, and so August of last year saw numerous terrorist attacks. The U.N. humanitarian headquarters was attacked and Ayatollah Baqir al-Hakim was assassinated at the Imam Ali mosque in Najaf. These were still aimed at very specific persons or organizations and involved targets with some level of protection.

As Iraq began to fill up with concrete barricades and razor wire, the targets changed. Attackers who had earlier concentrated on the Iraqi police as collaborators with the occupation took to bombing lines of people waiting to interview for jobs as police. Cleaning women who worked on a CPA base were gunned down. Attacks against random targets of opportunity proliferated. The culmination was on Ashura, the holiest day of the year for the Shi'a a dozen suicide bombers attacked processions in Baghdad and Kerbala (and tried to in Basra and Najaf), killing likely over 200 people.

The Spanish government has a heavy political investment in the claim that the ETA perpetrated these attacks, and there is some evidence in that direction. There is also much in the other direction, including a van found near Madrid with explosive detonators and an Arabic tape of Quranic verses, a claim of responsibility by an Islamist group, and a denunciation of the attacks by the spokesman of Batasuna, the Basque party most closely associated with the ETA.

But it doesn't matter. If al-Qaeda didn't do this, whoever did it was inspired by al-Qaeda. The attack involves the same modus operandi, the same abandonment of clear political purpose for body count as the sole criterion. If non-Islamist organizations come to adopt the same methods, the danger is only increased.

So far, all military measures in the "war on terrorism" have strengthened the emerging archipelago of Islamist terrorist organizations. Weakening it requires taking away the political ground on which they stand. That ground is not the virtually nihilistic domestic political programs of these groups. It is their opposition to U.S. imperial control of the Islamic world, a grievance that most Muslims share.

It doesn't matter whether you're a dove or a hawk, left or right, concerned with the suffering of others or concerned merely with your own skin. Military means will not work. The beginning of a solution is the end of the twin occupations in the Middle East. Only after that will it be possible to take measures against terrorism that don't worsen the problem.
Taken from zmag.org