when a guitar is not a production guitar any longer...

[the fool]

Long post but very interesting story, maybe you guys can help me out- especially guitar dealers out there. Days ago, I contacted Gibson to find out when they started to introduce and discontinue the Epiphone Les Paul ES model because I heard it was very short lived, and owning one myself, I just felt that I gotta find some info about my Epiphone Les Paul ES. I was pretty excited and I wanted to know if my guitar was one of the last ones they made being made in 2002- based from what a Roger Ball from Gibson customer service told me, by looking at my guitar's serial number. To my amazement and shock, the guy from Gibson customer service said that the Epiphone Les Paul ES was first introduced in 1999 and was immediately discontinued in the year 2000! I mailed him back and said it can't be! If the Epiphone Les Paul ES was already discontinued in 2000, how can my guitar be made in 2002 because mine is a 2002 Epiphone Les Paul ES. He told me that my Les Paul ES could have been a run ordered by a specific dealer or dealers because The Les Paul ES wasn't on the price list in 2002. He said that dealers can order guitars to certain specs, so there's always a chance that a guitar that may not be a production guitar any longer may show up in a store. Isn't this amazing? This means, that even if a guitar is no longer in production, it can still show
up in stores! Now my questions to you guitar dealers is this: When it comes to resale value or collectibility, what's the difference if there's any between production guitars and guitars made that are no longer in production
of the same model? Surely the guitar model that was made after it was no longer in production is not a recopy of the production made guitar. I asked the guys at Gibson customer service my Epiphone ES is a copy of the production line Epiphone ES, but they said its not a copy. They said its a real actual Epiphone Les Paul ES- only its not a production line anymore. I'm still pretty confused over the whole thing. Can you guys help me out?

[Hammurabi]

I don't think there would be much difference with an epi, but with a company like PRS I'm pretty sure it would.

[the fool]

ok then, if it was any other brand like a PRS or a Gibson, would it matter? And which would be more collectible?

[Lordathestrings]

Unless you're about to sell it, concepts like collectability are meaningless outside of insurance premiums. And it's up to the insurer to set those.

If it is some kind of 'collector's item' guitar, any mods you do will reduce the value. Which means that some artificial collector's criteria prevent you from making any changes that produce a more playable/enjoyable instrument.

If there are some mods you want to do, and if your Epi is some kind of collectible, your best course of action is to sell it to some fossilised collector, put the cash toward an instrument better suiited to your needs, and get on with your life.

'List' and 'Blue Book' prices are theoretical guidelines. The true test of something's worth is the actual price someone pays you for it. And then it's gone.

[Hammurabi]

I think if it was a brand like fender that does vintage reissues that would have all kinds of potential. If PRS did that with a pre-1995 model that would definitely sell for more than they used to. Other than that I don't know.

I think Fender would have the greatest difference. Gibson wouldn't as much because there are all kinds of old used gibsons floating around for a decent price whereas vintage fenders cost all kinds of $$.

[the fool]

Lordathestrings

No, I'm not planning to sell it. I just asked the question because I wanted to know the difference between a guitar made as a production line (between the time it was first manufactued as a production line and discontinued as a production line) and a guitar made after it was discontinued (not a reissue of the production line, rather just a guitar that is no longer a production line as those guys at Gibson puts it). Let's say a limited custom shop Gibson LP was introduce in 1995 and was discontinued in 1996. Then a Custom shop Gibson LP of the very same model came out in 1998- when it comes to collectors who buy limited edition guitars, which will be more valuable? They're the same models. The only weird thing is that one
was made after the model was allegedly discontinued.

Hammurabi
but i'm not talking about vintage reissues. you see that's what I thought too when the guy at the customer service said that my Les Paul ES could have been a "run" ordered by a specific dealer because it is a 2002 and the ES has been discontinued since 2000. I thought he meant that my Les Paul ES is a reissue of the production line Les Paul ES that was already discontinued when he said this, but when I emailed him about it, he said that my ES is not a recopy or a reissue. He said it's a real Les Paul ES- only its no longer a production line. This is the statement that I am confused about and I was wondering whats the difference- the fact that a guitar, that is not a reissue exists after the alleged model has been discontinued two years before it was made! mind boggling isn't it?

[Hammurabi]

Looks like something got misinterpreted.

I wasn't talking about it as a reissue. I was saying it would be special if it was another company because it isn't a reissue. What would make it valuable from a company like fender or prs is they have a tradition based on age, so getting something from their golden years without it being a common market reissue really would be something. Like your own custom model. With epi it's just one of those wierd things that happen, the fact that it wasn't in the main line of production doesn't mean much. It's odd, yes. Strange or significant, no.

[PonyOne]

I have a 1996 MIJ Fender Telecaster Custom 50th Anniversary Special. In addition to that fact that it's super-gorgeous, only a very, very small number of them were actually sent to the US (with the bulk remaining in Japan; there were only something to the tune of 1000-2000 or so made anyway).

This guitar is worth more than most American model telecasters of the same year, just because a) it's rare and b) it's a Fender with gold hardware and a little badge on it. Tonally, yes, it is amazing, but you see, to many guitar collectors, the tone and feel of an instrument takes a backseat to the rarity/beauty/exclusivity/cost of it.

With your Epi, not to rain on your parade or anything, but it will probably be a good decade or two before it is worth any notable money. It's the same situation that you see time and time again in the automotive world: take for instance a 1991-94 Nissan Sentra SE-R. To the vast bulk of the populace, it's an old crappy Nissan. To an automotive enthusiast it's a classic sleeper with the awesome SR20DE engine. Though the average person may think that it is only worth $1,000 or so, to a car dork it is worth more than that. To an Epiphone collector, the fact that it's a 2002 guitar that was supposed to be discontinued in 2000 would make it a great piece for its oddness.

For the record, a 1992 Nissan Sentra with a $2000 SR20DET engine swapped in from a Pulsar GTiR from overseas will run a 12 second quarter mile stock. A Porsche 911 runs about a 13.5 or so. Heheheh... this is my next automotive project. With a bigger (GT25) turbo it should do an 11.5 or 11.7 which will be very killer. 0-60 in under 5 seconds, in what looks like something your mom gave you as your first car... heheheh it will be so fun (I hope someone out there shares my excitement).

[Lordathestrings]

Excitement? Nah. Respect? Hell, yes! My killer FJ1200S only runs about a second faster than that, and it only weighs 565 pounds! (before I get on it, of course. :rolleyes: )

[DiminishedDevil]

All PRS's have been mass produced for a long time now. I think since 98 give or take a year. If you look at most new PRS there are gobs of glue dripping out from under the fret board. Gibson are also all mass produced to. These companies are both low quality. For $2000. Noway. All the compainies are welfare these day. ALL!!!!! just do some research and pick up a quality used anything off e-bay. For less that a welfare new one costs

[Hammurabi]

I think it was 95. At the least that's when they changed their design to the new and very infamous neck joint.

[Dr_simon]

OK well in defense of PRS my CE24 doesn't have any gobs of anything anywhere, other than style, good-looks, playability and fantastic tone. It is just a really beautiful guitar.

As far as discontinued goes, well the Epi was probably discontinued for a reason and I doubt it was due to Gibson having to take a loss selling such an excellent axe at such a low price !

[the fool]

thnx everyone- you've all been helpful. i finally understand.

[Hammurabi]

Just to be fair, PRS makes great guitars. I've never seen a prs with a problem like excess glue. The one and only thing about prs guitars I know about that could be considered a construction problem is the neck joint extends more than it used to, but I've never owned one so I can't say whether or not it even makes a difference. I doubt it does.

The only thing about prs guitars I don't like is they cost a lot. Many of them (like private stock) you could get entirely hand made and customized by any of several world-class luthiers with all the same or better details for less money.

I'm actually going to be building my own prs knockoff from warmoth parts as soon as I get a better job with more hours. I greatly doubt it's going to be as good as a real prs, but it's definitely going to be fun trying.

I wonder if PRS is ever going to make a neck-through model..that would be intense.

[Dr_simon]

I have a post '95 PRS with the "Heel from Hell" and let me assure you that that term, as well as the associated playing problems are an invention of Ed Roman in an attempt to sell Quicksilver guitars.

They are meaningless.

[Hammurabi]

Yeah, I was wondering about it because I've seen photos of the newer neck heels and they looked good to me.

I would buy a prs over something by Ed Roman easily. He's more than a little infamous as far as customer relations go and not everything he says matches up with reality. Besides, PRS guitars look way better imo.

[the fool]

speaking of ed roman, everyone ever tried any of his custom made guitars? i heard they're really good.

[Hammurabi]

I hear they're overrated. They're good, but I don't see the justification for him calling them the best.

[the fool]

how good? just curious because from his site and from the reviews of people from harmony central of his custom made guitars, it seems like everyone is really 100% satisfied on the quality and function of the guitar he makes. Even rock stars go to him. It seems to me that he really knows what he's talking about- very honest and straightforward guy, and I find his rants very informative. I find him credible enough base from the researches that I've made that I'm actually planning to have him make me a nice custom guitar.

[Hammurabi]

Look into Driskill guitars sometime, I personally think they're better instruments and Joe is completely legendary for his friendly approach to business. It's not hard to find customers who found Ed arrogant and condescending and a general asshole, but I seriously doubt Joe has ever had a customer in his life who wasn't perfectly happy about everything. Read the reviews for him sometime, they're better than Ed's.

Or Thorn, or Chapin, or Lentz, or Abyss, or Victor Baker. See, what Ed doesn't realize is that what he likes and what fills his wallet isn't what's perfect or what's best for everybody, and he doesn't do business on as much of a personal level, which I believe is necessary when dealing with custom guitars. Any one of those companies I mentioned could build the perfect guitar for you with everything you could ever dream of in a guitar and you would never need another guitar in your life unless it was stolen. Ed Roman seems more like he pieces together his model guitars by general properties and ships them out indiscriminately. Slap a thin neck on a quicksilver or pagan and solder it all together and he's done. Many other, and I believe better, luthiers will go out of their way to make the guitar for you. They will shape every little part of the construction to fit your every choice in tonal nuance and feel and make sure they understand what it is you're looking for (it's not uncommon hearing stories of how a certain luthier was able to 'snatch' a tone from someone's head they were having a hard time putting into words. very amazing, imo), they will go out of their way to make sure the guitar is what you want (I've heard stories of Joe mailing people guitar necks in the middle of construction to make sure they were perfectly satisfied with the feel and look of it), things like that.

[Dr_simon]

Originally posted by the fool
how good? just curious because from his site and from the reviews of people from harmony central of his custom made guitars, it seems like everyone is really 100% satisfied on the quality and function of the guitar he makes. Even rock stars go to him. It seems to me that he really knows what he's talking about- very honest and straightforward guy, and I find his rants very informative. I find him credible enough base from the researches that I've made that I'm actually planning to have him make me a nice custom guitar.

Dude, he is a sales man in Las Vagas, does that not mean anything to you ?

[hairbndrckr]

First off I would like to say 2 things...
1. DiminisedDevil hasn't a CLUE what he is talking about. Just because these companies you refer to bought a few machines and came out of the dark ages does not mean these guitars have no human contact... As a matter of fact, if you ever play more than 4 Gibson LP's you will notice that while the necks are similar, no two necks on the Gibsons are EXACTLY the same. That is because there is an old grey haired guy sitting back there with a spokeshave and a surform HAND profiling each and every neck... The same holds true to PRS... DD, just stay of edromanguitars.com...

2. As far as that fat, redheaded, luckycharms leprechan-looking wannabe sales man named Ed Roman, I wouldn't trust anything he says about anything....for someone who is supposed to be an authority on all things musical, he know jack dick....Also as far as his bulls*it guitar line is concerned, I wouldn't touch it even if the freaking pope himself highly endorsed it...you can't trust that man... he fakes guitars as well as makes them... just remember that the next time you look into one of his so called J-Frog guitars.... It could be a Kramer Fire Sale body with a J-Frog neck on it...Everything he sells is also overpriced...
Here is a simple test for you... find the Kramer pages by any means necessary ( I think he took it down for remodeling but you can still access it from some of his other pages) and find the 2 neck Richie Sambora model guitar... This particular one he has is a Japanese model that was produced in considerable numbers, but yes they are hard to find over here... Call him up and ask him about that guitar, and I will almost bet he will tell you he is looking to get $8000 out of that guitar because is was a limited run of like 6 guitars and there are only 2 for sale in existence of some bulls*it like that. Even better... I bet he will probably tell 10 different stories to 10 different people... Now... This guitar is probably worth in my opinion about 2k-2500 bucks, and I would love to have one, but he will tell you he can build you an EXACT copy of it for 4k.... So... who's to say the 8k one isn't a copy...

Now that I have gotten way off track about the purpose of this thread...

Just to let you know... As a collector myself there are a few things that I look for when I decide to buy a new guitar to add to the collection...

1. Name brand... I stick to the large brand names... Kramer, Gibson, Jackson... I rarely look at the offshoots such as Epiphone...
2. Your particular issue would peak my interest, but only slightly... The only thing us hardcore collectors look for anymore is the fancy one-off's or limited editions... Those usually end up coming from the custom shop...
3. Also, myself I also look for limited editions in production models like for instance, the Adrian Vandenburg model Peavy that came out in the late 80's-early 90's... They had a neckthrough quilt top version that is HIGHLY sought after... They are going for, in mediocre condition, as much as they were brand new if not more... I, right now, have my eye on one for a price of a little over a grand that I am thinking about adding to my collection... but I wouldn't buy one of the regular production Vandy's unless I was looking for a player guitar, then I would only spend at max, $300 for it...
4. Most guitars that I collect are at least 15-30 years old...so your Epi would probably not get my attention until at LEAST 2018...:)

[Lordathestrings]

My first 'real' guitar was one of these (http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3706820199&category=33049&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBBI%3AIT&rd=1) babies. I'd love to have it, but I don't have a pile of coin, and there are other priorities for the money I have. :( {deep sigh}

[Hammurabi]

Back on the subject of Ed, I was going to show some things earlier but I forgot the sites. Found them.

http://63.151.115.106/board/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=196617&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending
Look through these, pay special attention to the topic "he's unbelievable".


Here's a special site I found today that's very interesting. If you have any respect for Ed you need to have a look at this. Kaboom, biatch (http://edroman.aleclee.com/main.html).

I would also at this point like to apologise for my prior ignorance about PRS construction. I didn't realize how much they are worked with by hand before, but now I've seen the light. And it's a beautiful thing, hallelujah.

[the fool]

LOL Hammurabi, those sites that you've shown me gave me a secondary info to look at instead of just going to ed roman's site and reading reviews at harmony central. I looked around at the sites- especially the gear page site where they talk about how ed roman sells stuff at ebay. LOL. If I can remember, he condemns ebay in his site and he talks about how selling in ebay is a way for stores to discard of their rejects or something like that. What amazes me is that he sells a lot of guitars at ebay! could it be that no one's buying his guitars any longer, so he's using ebay to discard his guitars?

[the fool]

hrbndrckr

thats very true. being a guitar lover/ fanatic, i always go to the local music store in my area everyday just to try their guitars and stuff- and i've befriended the sales persons there and all of them know me by name. And they're very nice folk- they all let me try all the stuff in the store even though they know I wouldn't buy anything LOL. And I've learned from trying most of the guitars in the store that no two guitars are alike- even if its the same model made by the same one person. It follows the same concept that the greek philosopher Heraclitus said: "You cant step on the same river twice."

As a kid, I was brainwashed by the media of thinking that Gibsons are the best and are always 100% reliable when it comes to quality until I have the chance to play them for quite some time now because I always try them all at the store- and I found out from trying every model that not all of them are quality guitars- some of them can be pretty quite crappy for the price people pay for them. Only a select few sounds very good. It's the same case with Epiphones. I've seen and heard Gibsons that are worse than Epiphones and also have seen and heard Epiphones that are better than Gibsons. That's why when I had the money to buy a guitar, I decided to buy a guitar that is not a Gibson to save me money because Gibsons aren't as good as their reputation anyways. It just so happened that after spending more than five hours in the store trying all their guitars- the epiphone was the most beautiful of all- not just the looks but also the tone. Being a limited edition epiphone I think the materials that they used in this guitar are far better than the normal Epi lps out there. Just look at my electronics.

Usually the toggle switch and pots always comes off with cheap guitars but i'm proud to say that i've never have any problems with any of mine.

Second, I found the stock pickups pretty good and are much nicer and more decent than the other stock pus that epi uses on their normal epi lp guitars. The ES uses Gibson USA pickups- both alnico v's- a 57 in the neck and a hot humbucker on the bridge which are the same once epi used on the 50th anniversary lp- even most of the people that i know of where happy with these pus and decided to keep them.

Third, the wood in mine is actually nice and thick- its thick enough that a dual concentric pot that otherwise would fit in other guitars wouldn't fit in my guitar without having to route the body!

Fourth, I love the design- my guitar is hollow inside with f holes- its just the perfect guitar that I've been looking for.

My only problem with the guitar is that the gold plating tarnished pretty quick so I had to replace the hardware with some Gibson replacement parts, gold plated them (a friend who works at a car shop did it for free), and attached them to my guitar so I wouldn't have to worry about wear for a long time. I wasnt going to change the PUs but in the end, I decided to totally change the PUs with classic 57s and add graphtech's GHOST piezo system just to see if pus do make a big difference in guitar tone and i learned that it does. My guitar now is much more versatile- its like having an lp, an es 335, and an acoustic all in one guitar and I must say I'm very happy with it.

I just asked about the difference between a production line guitar and an out of production line guitar because a friend is selling me a beautiful Gibson les paul florentine made in 99 for almost 2 grand. I'm just wondering if I should buy it. I know from Gibson customer service that it was discontinued in 1998 but just like my epi, its also made after the model was supposedly discontinued and i'm just trying to see if by buying it, i can make more money out of it being an oddball guitar. But I guess this concept only works in high end guitars right?

[hairbndrckr]

Before you buy, check out a used guitar price guide to find out if what he is asking for is in the range of what most of those go for.
But here is the real kicker.... are you going to buy it for collecting reasons, or do you want to play it?
If you like the guitar and it sounds good and feels right when you hold it, 2k isn't a bad price to pay for something that feels right.

On the other hand, 2k is some serious scratch for something that is going to sit in a case in storage with no strings on it in hopes that one day it will be worth more money...

Unless you are going to collect hardcore, I wouldn't advise this addiction... Believe me...My wife has threatened divorce many times because I see a guitar in the pawn shop that catches my wallet...I mean, errr eye... yeah, eye...

With the amount of crap I got lying around looking pretty, I could be WELL on my way to retiring early and roaming the country...

[Dr_simon]

Hey hairbndrckr
How about some pictures for all us drooling jealous dudes, tough maybe they belong in another thread !

That gives me an idea !

[DiminishedDevil]

Even If gibsons are quality made? They still have welfare pickups and don't play so great. Get Fender squire thats where it's at!

[Hammurabi]

No. Squires have the most crappy pickups I've seen. They have all kinds of problems like sometimes they'll randomly clip out the entire signal quieter than where you're banging on the strings, and squires can have some neck issues. Gibson may be overpriced, but it's defitely better than squire.

[DiminishedDevil]

I wasn't 100% serious on that squire statement. Although most squires in my opinion are better than Mexican made fenders

[Dr_simon]

Dude, there is nothing wrong with Mexican Fenders, the majority play and sound really well ! I have both Mex, texmex and USA strats and teles and if I were asked to take the Pepsi challenge, I'd be stuck !

[hairbndrckr]

I will post some pics as soon as I get some time to actually go to "the vault" and line them up for photo time.... man that is going to be a lot of cleaning to do to get em ready...

[b_hoves]

Originally posted by Dr_simon
Dude, there is nothing wrong with Mexican Fenders, the majority play and sound really well ! I have both Mex, texmex and USA strats and teles and if I were asked to take the Pepsi challenge, I'd be stuck !

I am looking at getting a tele as my next guitar, I went in to my local (60 miles away) fender dealer and played 3 different teles, one was a Mex, and the other two were Americans, I could not see the difference that should be there considering the price difference, I mean there was a difference but not as big of a jump as I thought there would be.

[Hammurabi]

I've heard there is less of a difference between mexican and american teles as there is a difference between mexican and american strats. More discerning market or something like that.

[DiminishedDevil]

yeah but there is even less of a difference between squire and mex. Squire is better see for your self, they play better

[Hammurabi]

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you on that one.

[b_hoves]

my friend currently has a Squire strat, and he is looking a getting a fender so we looked at MIM and AIM strats, yes there was a bigger difference but still not wroth the price jump i thought, and if you spend a little extra money and time to sheild the MIM there would be even less difference.

as i said my friend has a Squire Strat and after playing these fenders, compaired to even the MIM it sounded and played like a big stinky pile of poop.

[hairbndrckr]

The last GOOD Squire strat in my opinion was made in 87... And if I am not mistaken, it was Japanese...

You wouldn't catch me dead with one of those Squier pieces of s*it now.... I mean you get what you pay for and you can't expect much for like $129.00...unless you are buying a Kramer...

[DiminishedDevil]

Kramers suck real bad at any price!!!! When I put out a virtuoso album with squire we'll see then, EH?

[hairbndrckr]

Well since 3/4 of my collection are Kramers both vintage and new... It's pretty obvious you really don't know what the hell you are talking about DiminishedDevil.... They are great players with killer sustain, and as long as you stay away from the new focus models and the vintage striker models, which were both made from plywood, you got a killer instrument.... You see, unlike you, I have actually played the Squier guitar and know first hand they suck ass.... Why don't you tell me the last model Kramer you played... here let me help you with your bullsh*t story... Go to www.musicyo.com and pick a model to say you played one, because if you truly had, you couldn't possibly say they play worse than the Squier...