Flamenco/Blues (questions for both)

[signsofchaos]

Who are some really good flamenco players? I'm looking for dark, depressive sounding flamenco...not the happy "Barcelona Nights" stuff. I've heard a couple songs I liked from the Gypsy Kings but I'm still lookin' for more stuff. Maybe like the stuff on the movie Desperado.

Also I'm lookin for the same mood but in Blues playing. Just really emotional blues played through the guitar and no singing. There can be singing but I'm lookin for guitar. Just real "pour your heart and soul into it" lead blues playing. I've heard Gary Moore but I'm lookin' for better.

[sme331]

For the Blues portion of your question, listen to Stevie Ray Vaughan. Especially, Lenny. Such emotion and feeling!!! You will love it.

Tim

[TheDirt]

I second Stevie Ray for blues. He's awesome. Also check out Albert Collins, Albert King, and B.B. King.

Tony Rice has some bluegrass-style blues in some songs (like "Jerusalem Ridge" off the "Church Street Blues" album

For some non-guitar oriented blues, check out Charlie Parker's album "Charlie Parker Plays The Blues", Duke Ellington's songs: "Memphis Blues", "Beale Street Blues", some good harmonica blues can be found in listening to Lightnin' Slim's albums "I'm Evil" and "Rooster Blues". Muddy Waters plays some good old school blues.

I personally love blues played on the piano. Players like Memphis Slim (esp. his album "Alone With My Friends"), Sunnyland Slim, Dr. John, Professor Longhair (New Orleans style blues), Otis Spann, Joe Willie "Pinetop" Perkins, and Fats Domino.

That should keep you busy for a while in the Blues section.

For flamenco, I'm not as familiar with the style... the only flamenco players I really know are Paco de Lucia and Al DiMeola. They're both top-notch, though. I think Paco sounds more Spanish if that's what you're looking for. Hope this helps!

[edit: just fixing a couple typos]

[TheWizard]

Roy Buchannan, Melvin Taylor, Buddy Guy, Danny Gatton

all very emotionaly driven blues masters, Melvin is by far one of the greatest players ever

Flamenco i'm not really sure about, Al DiMeola was very flamenco influenced

[sme331]

Do a web search on Preston Shannon, he plays BB kings club in Memphis, real good blues and excellent guitar work.

[basics]

What exactly is Flamenco? Is it anything like Gilberts 'Flamengo'? (lol I notice the similarities in the names) If so, is there reference anywhere on this site as to how the strumming in this style is accomplished? The solo bit is all good and well and up for personal interpretation but that strumming part, that'd make for a decent party trick.

[mc9mm]

Try listening to Paco de Lucia, he has made some, well, they're
not happy, but dark and depressive? Well you hear for yourself.
Oh , listen to "Asturias", a song he's made.

[alucard0941]

Originally posted by signsofchaos
Who are some really good flamenco players?




NOW THIS IS MY FIELD!!!! You can call me Mr. Flamenco. As far as a flamenco guitarist . . . Juan Serrano KILLS everyone one in site. If you get a chance, make him on your list for flamenco artists.

Though LOVE blues too. SRV is great but check out some of B.B.'s old albums for some dark stuff.

[chris mood]

Originally posted by alucard0941
. As far as a flamenco guitarist . . . Juan Serrano KILLS everyone one in site.

No Way, Paco de Lucia is the man.....lightyears beyond everyone else!

[alucard0941]

No really man, have you heard Juan Serrano? He is kinda unknown but in the flamenco world, he's acclaimed by everyone. Even Paco de Lucia. Paco is great but check out Juan. His rasqueado sounds like 2 or 3 people are playing. Don't make me even get started on tremolo.

[chris mood]

I've heard only 1 cd by Juan Serrano ( I forget the title).
When he was playing solo he sounded pretty good, but when he was playing with an accompiniast he sounded very rigid and unrelaxed. I would have to hear more of his stuff to make a sound judgement, but I can tell he comes nowhere near Paco. Pacos' rasguedo and tremelo's are amazing...he has the tightest tremelo I've ever heard, and he crescendos/descrendos with ease. Lets' not even mention Picado or Alzupau!

Tomatito is pretty good, but again no Paco.

I like Juan Martin a lot. Incredible legato and feel, he can play the simpliest thing and really make you feel it.

BTW...just saw Paco 2 weeks ago in concert...can you say AMAZING!!AMAZING!!

[alucard0941]

Yeah, Juan Martin is really good. I have is tab book and it rocks.

[chris mood]

juan Martins 6 part series instructional video is really good also. He's a good teacher as well as player.

[chris mood]

Where you from, Alucard?

[alucard0941]

Im from Sugarland, TX. ( if you dont know what im talking about, . . . then im from Houston)

You?

[chris mood]

Ahh man, I thought you were going to tell me you were from Spain or something.

Me....Philadelphia

Is there much of a Flamenco scene down there? or did George Bush run everybody with a nylon string guitar out of his state.

[alucard0941]

Originally posted by chris mood
Ahh man, I thought you were going to tell me you were from Spain or something.

Me....Philadelphia

Is there much of a Flamenco scene down there? or did George Bush run everybody with a nylon string guitar out of his state.

LMAO, shoot I wish I did live in Spain. No there is no scene of flamenco down there. Again . . . i wish. Shoot, I would not mind to rub a little flamenco on his country red neck butt.

This will surprise you but im only 14, you?

[bitterblues01]

yay i love in houston texas too :-p

[alucard0941]

Are you from Houston?

IF you are, im guessin your an SRV fan too :)

[Lordathestrings]

dark Blues ?

Try Roy Buchanan's "The Mesiah Will Come", or anything by Jimmy Thackery - in fact get Jimmy's "True Stories" CD, which has his cover of Mesiah on it!

[chris mood]

Jimmy Thackery..never heard of him, have to check him out.

So 14, and from texas...I would never of guessed that Mr. Flamenco. How old am I!?!? Lets just say I've been playing guitar for about 10yrs. longer then you've been in existence.

So how does a 14 yr. old kid from Texas get into Flamenco?

Do you study Flamenco from anybody or are you teaching yourself?

That's pretty cool, it's pretty deep music.

[alucard0941]

Eh, no not really. I got into flamenco because me dad has been a big blues fan. He's been played guitar for about 20 years. He told me that ( no offence to any blues fans ) blues is pretty easy compared to other guitar music. He decided to move on to a more complex art like flamenco. We both play togther and teach eachother new stuff. But yeah . . . im a Texan who playes Spanish music. I also loves blues aswell and play it when ever I have to NEED TO ROCK OUT. I also like metal and classical, but i flamenco is still my favorite.

What kind of music do you like chris mood?

[chris mood]

I'm a musical junkie, I like anything that's done well. Blues, Rock, Jazz, Flamenco, Country, Classical...there's something to be learned from it all. I have pretty high standards as far as players are concerned, I like to listen to the best of the best. Some of my favorites are; Paco de Lucia, Jimmy Bruno (Jazz) Larry carlton (jazz/rock) Robben Ford (jazz/blues/rock) Scott Henderson (jazz/blues/rock) etc..just to name a few.

If you ever get a chance take a Flamenco lesson from a true flamenco player (someone born & raised in spain who knows the music inside and out), it really is enlightening...there's a lot of technical things about the song forms and accents that are hard to figure out on your own.

[alucard0941]

What guitar(s) do you have?

I have a Stratocaster ( well . . . my dad's )
And a pure flamenco guitar made by a prestegous luthier named Francsico Navarro.

[chris mood]

Yeah, I've never been really into guitars, more what you can do with them. I stopped shelling out thousands of dollars for guitars about 10yrs. ago when I had a Gibson 335 custom shop guitar crack on me from taking it in and out of the cold. Now I just have a couple of "workhorse" guitars that get the job done and can be easily replaced if something happens to them.

So lets talk Flamenco, it's not often I get to talk to someone on this forum about Flamenco. So have you learned any of the song forms yet (Solea, Bulerias, Seville, Tangos, Tarantas, Alegria)?

Have you checked out any of the old timers yet, like Carlos Montoya, Sabicas, Nino Ricardo? I think Sabicas may be a little faster and cleaner then Paco de lucia.

[alucard0941]

Yeah I know a couple of songs. My favoritre is a small Fandangos piece. My favorite type of style is Bulerias though I cannot find a good piece to learn. Yeah I know some old - timers like Carlos Montoya. Carlos is very original, I like is style alot. Also have you heard some of the Gypsy Kings stuff, its pretty good. Usually I like more old fashion flamenco but there is something about the Gypsy Kings that gives them this kind of flare.

Do you know any pieces? Whats you favorite type?

[chris mood]

So far I've done Solea (a lot), tangos, zapeteado, and seville. I like Bulerias a lot, that's probably like the Be-Bop of Flamenco, very challenging. Sevilles' a lot of fun, it's kinda of up-beat and festive, it's basically flamenco dance music. The count is in 6. It's usually just 2 chords (lets say E7 and A), the E7 would be played on counts 1 & 2, the A on counts 3,4,5,& 6...w/a rasguedo on the up-beat of 4. So it would be (E7) 1 + 2 + (A) 3 + 4 E&A 5 + 6 +.

It's kinda good to get really good at Solea 1st, since thats the basic rhythm for other song forms like Bulerias, Seguiriyas, Fandango, and Alegrias.

Which Juan martin book do you have? Is it the one published by Mel-bay that comes with a cd & dvd?

[alucard0941]

Yeah I have the Mel-Bay DVD - CD thingy. So you do solea eh? I know that there is a 12 count. I'am having trouble establishing the beat. Have any tips? To play Bulerias your rasqueado has to be almost perfect and playing that is my current project.

[chris mood]

Yeah, understanding the rhythm of Flamenco (compas) is probably the hardest part.

The 12 count is like counting out 1/4 notes. The closest thing to relating the 12 count to western music would be to divide the 12 count into 4 measures of 3. So your typical Solea would look:

|| F (1 2 3)| C ( 1 2 3)| F (1 2 3)| E7 (1 2 3)||

And that would be your typical solea song form.
In westen music the accent (or down beat) is always on 1, this is the main difference w/Flamenco, in the solea the accents are on 3 6 8 10 & 12. So if I took the above chord progression and put an asterisk next to the aceented beat it would look like this:

||F ( 1 2 3*)| C ( 1 2 3*)| F ( 1 2* 3)| E7 (1* 2 3*)||

So as you see this doesn't translate well into traditional western methods of dividing music into bar lines and such...so instead they hear everything as 1 12 bar phrase. So in Flamenco you would count:

||F ( 1 2 3*) C ( 4 5 6*) F ( 7 8* 9) E7 ( 10* 11 12*)||

Accented beats would typically be approached with a single down stroke. Unaccented beats ( 1 2 4 5 7 9 11) would recieve a rasguedo.

[alucard0941]

Originally posted by chris mood
Yeah, understanding the rhythm of Flamenco (compas) is probably the hardest part.

The 12 count is like counting out 1/4 notes. The closest thing to relating the 12 count to western music would be to divide the 12 count into 4 measures of 3. So your typical Solea would look:

|| F (1 2 3)| C ( 1 2 3)| F (1 2 3)| E7 (1 2 3)||

And that would be your typical solea song form.
In westen music the accent (or down beat) is always on 1, this is the main difference w/Flamenco, in the solea the accents are on 3 6 8 10 & 12. So if I took the above chord progression and put an asterisk next to the aceented beat it would look like this:

||F ( 1 2 3*)| C ( 1 2 3*)| F ( 1 2* 3)| E7 (1* 2 3*)||

So as you see this doesn't translate well into traditional western methods of dividing music into bar lines and such...so instead they hear everything as 1 12 bar phrase. So in Flamenco you would count:

||F ( 1 2 3*) C ( 4 5 6*) F ( 7 8* 9) E7 ( 10* 11 12*)||

Accented beats would typically be approached with a single down stroke. Unaccented beats ( 1 2 4 5 7 9 11) would recieve a rasguedo.

Oh I get it. ( its much more easier to understand with pictures or diaghrams) thankyou very much.

[chris mood]

Bulerias is the same count as Solea, only played twice as fast. Since it takes a lot of concentration to count to 12 that fast, most people will just count the accented beats in 5. So it would be like this:

(pause) 1 (pause) 2 (pause) 3 4 5

Solea:
1 2 3* 4 5 6* 7 8* 9 10* 11 12*
___1____2____3___4_____5
Bulerias

[alucard0941]

Hey chris mood, check out this flamenco scale I just tabbed out (http://www.guitartricks.com/2000/trick.php?trick_id=7429)

[chris mood]

Looks good.

[alucard0941]

Thanks. Try it out, when you are accending toward to 12 fret, then it sounds really cool.

[chris mood]

I don't know if you've ever been here, but this is a good site w/a lot of Flamenco licks (falsettas) tabbed out. Enjoy!

www.ctv.es/USERS/norman

[alucard0941]

Ohhhhhhhh man!!!! I have been searching all over the net for a site like this. Gracias!

[chris mood]

Yeah, that's about the best one I've ever found.

[alucard0941]

You know what really good about flamenco? That you have very little competion. I mean like alomost every one who picks up a guitar wants to be another Hendrix ( thats a good, dont get me wrong). So when ever I am with a group of my guitar buddies, they all play rock, blues, metal, ect. Then when I bring out my nylon strings and start playing, no one can crtiticise of anything because not many people play flamenco( or at least at my age ). Automaticly, it impresses people.

It came across my mind so I decided to post it . . . LOL

[chris mood]

As long as you stay out of Spain I don't think your going to have too much competition. Your right, it is nice.

[alucard0941]

Hey chris mood, have you heard Hotel California unplugged. If you have I bet you like the solo.

[chris mood]

yeah, it's a nice version. The playing is not all that impressive, there using a pick, except for a couple of simple rasguedos that Joe Walsh does in the intro.

[alucard0941]

Actually come to think of it . . . I agree with you

[xxkp89xx]

molay molay molay molay

MOLAY MOLAY MOLAY MOLAY






:rolleyes:

[chris mood]

I think you mean.....ole'!

[xxkp89xx]

If you say so :)

Talking about flamenco, did you know the origins of it are really traced back to Pakistan? Oh yes, I was suprised too, my friend, until I learned that Pakistan in turn stole it from India. :eek:

Coincidence? I think not ;)





BROWNSOUND

[alucard0941]

unfortunately, im related to a moron . . .

:o

[alucard0941]

xxkp98xx that is . . .

:rolleyes:

[xxkp89xx]

unfortunately, you're moron relative can spell unfortunately

[iamthe_eggman]

Well, that oughta learn ya fer telling other people about this site...

[chris mood]

Originally posted by alucard0941
Hey chris mood, have you heard Hotel California unplugged. If you have I bet you like the solo.

It's funny you brought that up, becuase I always wondered why no "killer' nylon string players have attempted to break into the pop music scene. Most of the western population has not heard what really great nylon string players can do. Every time you hear a nylon string guitar in pop music it's always playing something slow and pretty.

If someone with the technical capabilities of Paco de Lucia or John Williams ever did a rock thing, say like a Dave mathews type thing except with a ripping nylon string guitar most peoples jaws would hit the floor.

[alucard0941]

Yeah sometimes I think that flamenco player of guitarists of that sort of a bit underrated. Even by popularity, I mean flamenco is very complex and when I became a member, I expected to talk to more people about and discuss art. So far, your the only one who knows it who I'v talked to who knows it.

Yeah Hotel California's solo is not even the slightest drop of protential nylon strings can really do. I just liked the sound :D