My theory why goths/satanists are actually happy little Christians

[finger_cruncher]

I propose that all these little goth kiddies and people who think they're 'dark' and 'evil' are actually good little Christian dorks. Let me elaborate my position (By the way, I'm as atheist as they come).

Anyway, the Devil is a major part of Christian theology. God and the Devil are polar-opposites. One can't exist without the other. Comprende? If you believe in the Devil, then you have no choice but to believe in God. One can't exist without the other (although you could choose to not believe in either). What does all this mean? Well, nothing really...except that so-called 'Satanists' aren't as bad-ass or evil as they'd like to portray. They believe in organized religion, for Christ's sake (pun intended)! In fact, the very definition of the word 'evil' necessarily implies that there must be some parallel antonym, namely 'good' (i.e. good vs evil). If you're a devil-worshipper, you're also implicitly Christian.

I hope this thread provokes some thought or serves as some form of amusement to you people. As always, feel free to refute my hypothesis. Furthermore, while I'm an atheist, I am certainly not suggesting that Christianity is bad. The point of this post is simply for amusement.

Matt :)

[Tele Master]

I'm amused. Theories are cool.

[I Suffer]

*is an atheist as well*

Someone once said to me that if a person is a satanist they arent bad but people who worship the devil are horrible people. Meh, i hate religion.

[moody_fa_loonie]

(applause)
Im impressed. You ever think of becoming a professor? Or goin on Jepardy?

[Pantallica1]

Atheism is sooooooo 1990s!!!

Haha, just kidding.

I just don't understand Atheism, I mean wouldn't being agnostic be more suitable?

Atheism means that we would have evolved from monkeys, so that throws me out of being an atheist right there. I don't want to think about my great grand daddy being a monkey!!

Agnostic is a bit less harsh than saying your an atheist. Being agnostic still gives some hope and can help explain some of the unexplainable.

Agnostic is defined as: One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.

That's a bit more general because you can't prove there is, but also you can't prove there isn't.

[finger_cruncher]

I've been at university for 6 (yes, six!) friggin' years. I can debate with the best of 'em. ;)

[moody_fa_loonie]

Thats the way to go!

What are degree are you taking?

Im goin for my bachelor of science next year

[I Suffer]

I usually dont say I'm "Agnostic" because most people look at me like i have a certain part of the male antamony on my forehead. So i found it cute when you gave the defintion , lol :)

Its hard to decide if theres a god, maybe even atheists confide that there might be a god, just incase. But of course they do this in secret. Or maybe some monk needed a religion and some followers really quickly, no wait, it couldnt have been a monk...i dont know. * shrugs*

[the fool]

okay, i like to think. wait a minute... wait a minute...

what do u mean by polar opposite? ie. one can't exist without the other? I think it's prefectly possible for something to exist without the other. See for instance, dark and light. Darkness only thrives with the absence of light. The same can be said with light also- light thrives with the abscence of darkness. Both are polar opposite but the existence of the other depends on the abscence of the other. The same can be said with Evil and Good. Evil is the absence of good just as the abscence of Evil is good. But in order for something to exist, another must not exist at the same time and place. There's a law here that they use in science, i just forgot what its called... damn it!

Pardon me but, I can't see how devil worshippers can be christians- you are either one or the other. I'm not being a smart ass religious person here i'm just trying to comprehend this statement because i think it's dangerous when you start making everything monotonous.

[finger_cruncher]

I'm a criminology major. My intent? To join the police force and become a corrupt cop, busting druggies and reselling their stashes, being bought out by sleezy politicians, and beating up punks in back alleys. Just kiddin'. My intent is to go into Ident, otherwise known as CSI.

[Pantallica1]

Originally posted by finger_cruncher
I've been at university for 6 (yes, six!) friggin' years. I can debate with the best of 'em. ;)

I'm on year 4, but 6 will probably be my exit date as well.

*sigh* (thinks of all the equipment he could buy with that money)*/sigh*

[the fool]

I'm also thinking about satanists and how they are happy lil christians. satanists are folks who reject christ out of free will. if you reject christ, how can u be a christian? if your statement is correct, then i suppose you can say that all christians are happy little satanists? strange world isn't it?

[finger_cruncher]

Originally posted by the fool
okay, i like to think. wait a minute... wait a minute...

what do u mean by polar opposite? ie. one can't exist without the other? I think it's prefectly possible for something to exist without the other. See for instance, dark and light. Darkness only thrives with the absence of light. The same can be said with light also- light thrives with the abscence of darkness. Both are polar opposite but the existence of the other depends on the abscence of the other. The same can be said with Evil and Good. Evil is the absence of good just as the abscence of Evil is good. But in order for something to exist, another must not exist at the same time and place.



Yes, but that doesn't refute what I established, namely that polar opposites must exist. Darkness and light still exist in harmony. If it's dark, it's not light. If it's light, it's not dark. It has to be one or the other. They still exist together. Same applies for religion. If you believe in the Devil, you've bought into the concept of Christianity. It's a Christian conception! So if you're a Satanist, you necessarily are also a Christian. Of course, people don't like hearing this idea. It's just my proposition...and something to get people thinking. Kudos for the response, man.

:)

[I Suffer]

Wow, you have to have alot of patience to go into the field of the CSI. I can't even figure out who did it on the TV show, i just blame everyone, and deny i ever did if i was wrong. I obviosuly dont have the brain cells required. I bet its really intresting though.

Best of luck to you.

[finger_cruncher]

Originally posted by the fool
if your statement is correct, then i suppose you can say that all christians are happy little satanists? strange world isn't it?


You hit it on the head. Now you're thinking! Congrats. Religion is nothing more than a wide-spread manifestation of organized cults.

[I Suffer]

[/B][/QUOTE]

Religion is nothing more than a wide-spread manifestation of organized cults. [/B][/QUOTE]

I'd have to agree there.

[Pantallica1]

If you're an atheist and you believe there might be a God that would make you agnostic.

Right?

[the fool]

o no, i'm not offended at all. i don't mind hearing it. its a perfectly valid philosophical point.

i think harmony is not the word but discord don't u think? harmony is to work together, lightness and dark don't work together- they work in discord- a power struggle if you may because the existence of the other depends on the absence of another- they aint the same mix just as evil and good just don't mix as well.

I think, the point: "if you believe in the devil, you're bought into christianity," is more of a philosophical/ religious concepcion than a Christian one. The devil isnt a christian invention in the first place. devils existed in many different religions and myths holding many different names even before christianity. the devil is basically a concept/ construct- the universal symbol for evil if you want to speak philosophically, just as the word God is the universal symbol for good. If I believe in the devil, it might not be the case that i am bought on the concept of christianity. Maybe i believe in the devil because i don't see anymore hope in the world. I believe more in world that is consistent with the "devil construct." Same with the case if i am to say that i believe in a god. that also does not mean i am bought on a christian concept. rather, i see a world consistent with the "god construct."

[finger_cruncher]

Well, there's some truth to that. Generally speaking, yes there are variations of the conception of 'devil' in other societies, religions. But I'm speaking of the Christian conception of the devil in particular, which is strictly a Christian concept (you know, the typical red guy who sometimes sports a goat face and has a long tail...carries a pitch-fork in the cartoons). He's the typical idea of the devil. And yes, the Devil was a fallen angel. So it's purely a Christian concept. Although, I won't deny that there are variations of a similar creature in other societies (ie. like Indigenous peoples and ancient societies believed in evil spirits, etc). Good point.
:)

[I Suffer]

Right.

I dont like to state something unless im sure, and in this cause im not,because of the simple fact, I dont know. Sometimes i think its possible other times i think its not. I just do my own thing and hope that if there is, he doesn't send a lighting bolt up my whoospie daisy. If someone could come up with hard evidence, then i'd probably still choose to not go along with the bible, go to church, pray and whatnot.

I don't like ways of religion. Plus its way to touchy of a subject for alot of people. Then they threaten to get their Jesus army on me, seriously.

[moody_fa_loonie]

haha

yeah
but when you think bout it...whats after death? i definitely hope theres something after it. Why u see me at church every sunday lol jk

[Pantallica1]

Yeah, the Bible is a book to be read how you see it.

I hate people that try to force religion on me. I don't go to church, but I beleive there is a God. But I hate when peolpe say, oh the Bible says this and this. Well to quite honest the Bible says a lot of things.

Like women aren't supposed to cut their hair, women can't wear pants, you can't eat shellfish of any kind, masturbation is a sin, so on and so on. It's just ridiculous. I'll pray how I want, I don't need someone to tell me how to pray and what to beleive in.

[the fool]

Thanks for respecting my point. I hope u dont mind me asking these questions. I don't mean to challenge your opinion. I think it's a perfectly valid opinion. Many great men used to be aetheists too. The late CS Lewis for instance, used to be the biggest aetheist until after a couple of questions, he found the light and somehow settled to believe in a God. Even if the aetheists are right, I guess, believing in a God isn't that harmful after all because in the end there would be nothing. I think, the main good out of believing in a god is that atleast you believe that your life has a purpose- some people might say this is an illusion/ deception, but atleast, in a psychologist's perspective, you've made yourself feel good.

I'm just trying to be like the rest here, I'm also in a spiritual pursuit. I've searched everywhere- religion, philosophy, you name it, and i encountered many different questions and problems- some very similar to yours. And since there is really no answer to philosophy, the best that i can do is ask questions until the truth somehow hits me just like it hit others. I think, the problem now a days is that people tend to equate God with religion when in fact it doesn't have to be that way.

[the fool]

same here pantallica. i believe in a God but i dont go to church because i interact with God in my own personal way. people frown at that fact because they tend to associate God with religion but i think there's no other temple but your own body. I think, as long as you try to live in harmony with others- try to be productive, good and helpful to others as much as you can, you're qualified as a "good christian" i guess. I tend to notice that those folk who tend to go to church are the most biggest assholes that i know off. Besides, most of the people who go to church are only there to socialize. the church has become a social place instead of a place for worship.

[Hammurabi]

Alrighty then..

Satan isn't a christian concept and it never has been. The bible never says Satan, except in inaccurate translations (which would be most). It does say Lucifer, but for the most part the bible uses vague terms for the being. Satan is actually a figure in Persian theology, formerly known as Shaitan. The term was mistakingly thrown in and it has become enough of a buzzword nobody has bothered doing anything about it.

[finger_cruncher]

Originally posted by Hammurabi
Alrighty then..

Satan isn't a christian concept and it never has been. The bible never says Satan, except in inaccurate translations (which would be most). It does say Lucifer, but for the most part the bible uses vague terms for the being. Satan is actually a figure in Persian theology, formerly known as Shaitan. The term was mistakingly thrown in and it has become enough of a buzzword nobody has bothered doing anything about it.

Lucifer, Beelzebub, Satan, Devil, Damien, whatever. You know what I mean.

[Hammurabi]

I know, I just like poking fun at people's religious assumptions.

[concrete chaos]

i think all religions revolve around the same principles more or less.

organized religion is so forced that ppl have lost touch and love for pure religion.

Im not an atheist but i dont belive in god being a white bearded man. Jesus christ was prolly one of the most ascended of the human race, ie theoretically we all have those powers, we just dunno how to use 'em.

Remember physics - energy cannot be destroyed.
therefore for me god is just the absolute life force, the energy that keeps this whole universe going, the balance between cause and effect. if god and the devil are opposites than god IS NOT absolute power.

take everything in life good - evil, love - hate, cause - effect, magnetic poles, etc.. all are opposites uniting at a point and no longer remaining opposites but a perfect unification.

satanisim how u see it is prolly not satanisim in its essence which would really be worshipping pure and uncontrolled energy.

what im getting at is what you see is what popularity has made it to be. be it christianity or satanisim.

if u actually read the bible or the satanic bible or other works ud be able to create your own analogy for teh symbolical images and theory. and find ur own pathway thry life.

which is why we hav a brain and should use it. why christians dont is like really bad, cus God gave u that brain no one else has it - god made man in his image - so if u become a veg and just accept things ur not following christs example your just follwing him, without any clue.

and satanists who just do it for the sake of rebelling against chirstianity is ridiculous. cus ur doing becuase of that. so its causing u to do it.

bottom line ppl suck. :d [the majority anyway]

[the fool]

see, the problem is, people tend to equate God with religion as if the two were dependent when in reality, i think religion is dependent of God and God is independent of anything else-just as some plants are dependent of the sun and the sun is independent of plants. that's why if something goes wrong and when religion fails, we tend to blame god for everything. mind you, everything that is man made will fall. religion is man made- so it will always be doomed to failure but i don't think its fair to attach it up to god and say that god is evil or is it's fault, or that he doesnt exist. i think most of the evils in the world are made by our own doings and could have been prevented/ solvalbe, haven't we only been so selfish.

i strongly agree that god gave us a brain- and with that brain, the ability to choose or free will if you may. people has a history for complainin and demanding for miracles but for God to just make everything good means to mess up with the gift of free will. God and the devil do not work in harmony- they work in discord- a power struggle because the other can only exist without the other.

still don't understand what the deal is with all these extra lines all the time, fool -eggman

[Edited by iamthe_eggman on 01-28-2004 at 09:38 AM]

[the fool]

but come to think of it, religion is not that bad either- even if you don't believe in a God. Psychologically and evolutionary speaking, it has survival value so its actually supposed to be good. it gives you a place to belong which fulfills one of the needs in maslow's hierarchy, it gives that feeling of certainty and pesce which is basic to human nature, it's also an affirmation of your own self because from social psych, we always make comparisons with other people to know our place in the world- ie. seeing other people believe in the same things as you do, makes you feel good and affirms your self, it gives you an explanation for the unknown... i can go on and on. the list goes on and on. i think religions are essential in the survival of the human race. just look back at history- the native people who survive centuries with their nature religion, the ancient babylonians, egyptians and many ancient civilization which fluorished and survive because of their religion (ie. what started out as looking in the sky or gods lead to astronomy- science). People always have a religion. even if all else fails, i think people will always revert back to religion. think of the lord of the flies.

it's just since religion is man made, it can't be totally perfect- there will always be bad things associated with it just as there are good things associated with it.
right now, i think we tend to emphasize the bad things that's why we're giving it so much criticism but without religion I don't know if we'll ever survive or come to this kind of world as we know it.

[hairbndrckr]

You know I think I will throw my hat in the ring at all this theological mumbo jumbo...
I also am an "Athiest" of sorts. I personally believe there is more proof that we were put here by an alien race as kinda like a "alien ant farm"....(Hmmm I wonder where they got that name) to see if we could thrive and survive.

I also believe that if you think about it, there are a lot of parallels to my thinking. The alien race that put us here could be construed as "God". I mean they ARE watching over us after all. I mean we have even shot down a few...

I also believe that we go back to the mother planet when it's all said and done, only to be replanted at a later date.

I personally think this is a better explanation, not to mention more proof of plausability, than the depiction of some old grey haired guy in a white mu-mu living in the clouds.

[LethalLuke]

I think were inside the matrix. that film is so good

[the fool]

hairbandrckr, have u ever read Gods of the New Millenium by Allan Alford. Some folks believe that we're actually created by aliens and there's a lot of scientific proofs about this. If you'd like to know more about this possibility, i suggest you read the book. u might like it.

[the fool]

as for me, i don't think that god is that big guy in the clouds with a grey beard- i never said that. by definition, god cannot be classified as anything. the best we can understand him is some great spirit of somesort, or a life force/ energy- whatever you call it. people, especially religion only try to picture him as a human so they could understand just as if horses could draw, they'll also depict god in their pictures in the image of the horse. The problem is, most folks take the symbolism literally. I personally believe in a God. I just don't see him as just the big guy from the sky.

[LethalLuke]

Theres not even that much these days that can't be explained by science. I think everyone just dies and decays simple as that... i think that ppl who believe in god will feel real bad when they die and are just dead

[iamthe_eggman]

Originally posted by LethalLuke
i think that ppl who believe in god will feel real bad when they die and are just dead

Yeah, they'll feel really upset after their ashes have been spread over the ocean... :rolleyes:

[chucklivesoninmyheart]

Check out bible-truths.com.This guy is one smart dude making sense of the bible.Ive spent the past five years trying to disprove the bible out of hate for what I thought was a sadist(god).I wound up believing though(I know,what kind of metal head am I?).

'Religion' is stupid,controlling,shallow,deceitful and foolish...but the real word of god(if you believe theres one in the first place)has no affiliation with religion.

I searched for contradictions and found everything comes together perfect,makes sense and isn't contrite.Theres just bad translation(king james)and mis-interpretations.

1.Christ will save ALL and the majority of mankind will NOT burn in hell for eternity.
2.When you die,you are DEAD without any thought.Christ will resurrect.
3.The Devil is NOT independent of god,he is a TOOL and didn't surprise god by defying him.God did exist without satan.He has no power independent of christ.
4.God DOES CREATE EVIL(Isa 45.7).He uses evil for his good purpose and it is temporary.
5.We dont have FREE will.We are under gods will and not indepentent of our creator...though we can make choices,there not 'free'.simple 'cause and effect'.
6.We are held accountable for our actions but God IS responsible.

Seriously,go check out bible-truths.com
he answers the tough questions that 'religion' wont ever touch.Like why we are here,why god lets people suffer e.c.t.



[Edited by chucklivesoninmyheart on 01-28-2004 at 03:43 PM]

[aiwass]

There is a lot of stupidity in this thread...

About the thread topic: Satanists do NOT worship Satan. Satanists use Satan as a symbol to distance themselves from the CONCEPT OF the Christian God, since their moral views are contradictory with those of Christianity. Satanism is nothing more than Atheism with a clearer moral outline: Thy will is thy law. Do what you want; be your own God.

Also, 90% of the conceptions of Satan are superstitious propaganda created by the Catholic church, and just as Biblically unsubstantiated as the notion of wichcraft (and the subsequent Witch Hunt). Lucifer is described in the Bible as the most magnificent and beautiful of the arch angels, and Jahwe's (God's) favorite of all the angels. When granted one wish by God, he stated that he wanted to be God. God had said that he could wish for anything, yet could not make him what he himself was, so he cast Lucifer into the shadows, where he could rule. After this, all other connections between Lucifer and the devil are speculative at best, as well as the implications of Hell being Lucifer's abode. Besides, as someone stated, the devil is never described as God's counterpart or arch enemy. After all, if God is omnipotent, he should have no obstacles.

@ Pantallica1: So you just can't believe that your grandfather was a monkey? Guess what... he wasn't! Neither was your great x 10^3 grandfather. So many creationists justify their views with the alleged lunacy of our primate descent, yet they show nothing more than ignorance.

Has it not occured to you that even the slightest evolutionary change takes tens, if not hundreds of generations to occur? Also, these changes do not necessarily happen for a specific reason; it is the other way around: Creatures whose traits change for the better, survive those of lesser adaptation.

One example is a species of moth found in England, which was originally camouflaged to blend in with the bark on the birch tree (in case you don't know, it's almost white). However, with industrialization came severe coal pollution, which stained the trees black. This rendered the almost white moth an easy target to predators, as it was no longer visible. However, an error occured in the DNA of a few of the moths, causing them to be born darker in color, almost black. Due to natural selection, these darker individuals survived (as they were more adapted to their surroundings, and could not be seen), and the entire species slowly changed to a darker shade.

To take it to another, even more rapid level of evolution, take bacteria, for instance. How come bacteria can become immune to antibiotics? How come penicillin is becoming less and less effective in the battle against infection? How come some viruses are becoming immune to vaccines? EVOLUTION, on such a small scale that quantum leaps can take place within a matter of seconds.

We have seen it in insects. We have seen it in bacteria. We have SEEN PROOF OF IT in higher lifeforms too, although it works at a much slower rate (after all, unlike microorganisms, we don't reproduce every three seconds), yet some choose to deny hard facts and scientific evidence, and attribute it all to a deity who supposedly created the world in six days. Faith is one thing, but IMHO, creationism is sheer ignorance and stubbornness.

I just hate when people try to PROVE anything when it comes to religion. I do however believe that much of the Bible can easily be DISPROVEN in terms of fact vs. faith. As for believing, however, I shall agree with Kierkegaard in saying that in religion, reason will only take you so far. It is only by a leap of faith that one can see God as truth, and this is very much a matter of choice. I choose not to.

Furthermore, his existence is irrelevant to me, as I would comply to him no more if I knew he existed, than in my current state of skepticism.

[Edited by aiwass on 01-28-2004 at 05:24 PM]

[iamthe_eggman]

Originally posted by aiwass
Has it not occured to you that even the slightest evolutionary change takes tens, if not hundreds of generations to occur? Also, these changes do not necessarily happen for a specific reason; it is the other way around: Creatures whose traits change for the better, survive those of lesser adaptation.

One example is a species of moth found in England, which was originally camouflaged to blend in with the bark on the birch tree (in case you don't know, it's almost white). However, with industrialization came severe coal pollution, which stained the trees black. This rendered the almost white moth an easy target to predators, as it was no longer visible. However, an error occured in the DNA of a few of the moths, causing them to be born darker in color, almost black. Due to natural selection, these darker individuals survived (as they were more adapted to their surroundings, and could not be seen), and the entire species slowly changed to a darker shade.

To take it to another, even more rapid level of evolution, take bacteria, for instance. How come bacteria can become immune to antibiotics? How come penicillin is becoming less and less effective in the battle against infection? How come some viruses are becoming immune to vaccines? EVOLUTION, on such a small scale that quantum leaps can take place within a matter of seconds.


There's a huge difference between evolution and adaptation. Adaptation is nowhere near a proof of evolution.

[the fool]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by LethalLuke
i think that ppl who believe in god will feel real bad when they die and are just dead
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
how will the dead feel bad?- they're dead! If there is no God, and there's only the physical body, then ones your physyical body goes down- so are your sensations, feelings, emotions, consciousness etc. so basically, you won't feel anything! LOL

[aiwass]

Let me rephrase my point a bit more elegantly (sitting up late typing): If microorganisms can change radically due to slight genetic anomalies, and human beings share about 97% of their genes with the common chimpanzee, why is it so ludicrous that apes and humans have once had a common ancestor?

[LethalLuke]

Haha oh well and i thought i was being really smart when i said that... but u get what i mean ! If they could feel then theyd be pretty pissed off about seeing themselves decaying etc.

[LethalLuke]

- quote aiwass:
"human beings share about 97% of their genes with the common chimpanzee" -

I think its actually 99 point something well im sure i heard it one biology lesson - amazing really.
Also we didnt just evolve from the monkey we evolves from little bits of bacteria. (heard that somewhere unless its my imagination...im no A* student hehe)

[SPL]

Satanism simply means that you live your life to a different set of moral standards than Christians do. A set of moral standards is what religion, in its core, is all about.
Then how can Satanists but Christians?

And as for this comment...

Originally posted by Pantallica1
Atheism means that we would have evolved from monkeys, so that throws me out of being an atheist right there. I don't want to think about my great grand daddy being a monkey!!

... all I can do is laugh really.(like you laugh with a comedian) Atheism and evolution theory have not much to do with eachother. Atheism just believes that there is no god, consequently there can be no god that is responsible for life on earth, which is why athiests tend to prefer logical thinking(evolution theory) over stories about how somehow everything in the universe was created in 7 days...

Christians can just as well believe that evolution is something god is in charge of.

As for myself, I'm a humanist/atheist who keeps his opinions on the matter to himself because he knows better. ;-)

[the fool]

@ aiwass

I didnt say that satanists worship satan. All I'm saying is that satanist reject the idea of christ so they can't be considered Christians. No one said it much better than you did, and I strongly agree- satanists are simply aetheists with a clearer moral outline of doing one's own will and being their own Gods. I am no way proving anything in the name of religion. All i'm doing is throwing questions to questions like a good philosopher in hopes that someday, i might find the truth.

As with your views about the devil, I hope you won't take offense but i would have to pinpoint a couple of errors. First, NEVER will you find Lucifer described in the Bible as the most magnificent and beautiful of the arch angels, and Yahweh- not Jahwe's (God's) favorite of all the angels and that whole story about Lucifer being granted one wish by God, and in stating he wanted to be god, was thrown in hell. If you can give me the exact book, chapter and verse, I would apologize and keep my mouth shut. Rather, our knowledge of this story stems from dear old Judaism which is the root where christianity originally branched out. Even Judaism has many versions of this story. This story also appears in the Nag Hammadi Library if you're interested in checking it out. Second, the bible- specifically Paul for instance, identifies Satan, or Prince of the World- his other name, as THE ENEMY. Third, I believe your logic about God's omnipotence is valid but not sound. The devil is God's "enemy" in a sense that the devil represents everything that is the opposite of God, but despite of this- the devil is under God, or a subordinate (is this the right word?) of God, so although the devil is the enemy, he is not powerful enough to be an obstacle to God.

@ pantallica

i've said this so many times to people but even evolution contradicts itself if you take a look at it. Just look for instance mutations. The human body is a very fragile body- at the time before conception, so many things are happening that even a slight change or mutation such as an extra chromosome would potentially make the child abnormal.
Just one good, healthy mutation is very hard to come by. Imagine then how it was possible for humans to have evolved from monkeys with so many "healthy or good mutations" in just a a course of a couple of hundreds of millions of years. The odds are close to impossible.

Also, evolution tends to favor those mutations that enable us to adapt at environments tend to be preserved. If this is the case, then why didn't we develop small heads? In the pre historic times- in the abscence of doctors and education etc. many mothers have died of childbirth because of the child's big head. why didn't our heads mutate to smaller ones? evolution is simply a theory that scientists use to explain the unknown- it is no different from religion. Some philosophers say that religion was born out of man's means to explain the unknown. Since both are made by humans, they can't be perfect. they're also doomed to fail.

[the fool]

chucklives on in my heart

i certainly agree with the part that god has no affiliation with religion. As with the comment that Religion is "'Religion' is stupid,controlling,shallow,deceitful and foolish," I also agree to a certain extent, but as I've explained in my previous post, i hope u read it, although there are many errors in religion because it is man made, nonetheless, we still need a sort religion to survive. many civilizations fluorished and many scientific achievements were made in the name of religion- just look at the ancient civilizations like the egyptians and the babylonian which basically lived a life of religion. Look at the native indians. It's very easy to discard religion because of the technology now but i strongly believe that when all else fails, i think people will revert back to some sort of religion- one way or another. Now, as to the guy at bible truths, I don't exactly agree with most of his sayings. Here's my comments to his opinions.

4. God DOES CREATE EVIL(Isa 45.7).He uses evil for his good purpose and it is temporary.

I get the concept in Isaiah but i think the guy from bible truths has commited a serious danger when he used the word "evil" as a substitue for "trials and tests." For God does not create "Evil" in a sense of the absolute evil
because just as an apple tree cannot bare orange, so can evil come out of good. Rather, God makes tests, from my understanding, and the test only becomes good and evil depending on your prespective (ie. how you take and deal with the test). It has nothing to do with absolute evil.

5. We dont have FREE will.We are under gods will and not indepentent of our creator...though we can make choices,there not 'free'.simple 'cause and effect'.

Free will exists. It is your choice whether you want to be under god's will or not. But here's the catch. In some religions, God is described as the TAO or the way or direction in which all else fall. If you choose to follow a a different path- you will be destroyed. And you will be destroyed not because God wants to punish/ destroy you. Rather, you are destroyed as a result of the consequences of your actions. Here's a good analogy for you: think of a plant. In order for a plant to grow, you have to put it in the direction of light. You can choose to put it in the path of the light or put it in the dark. If you choose to put it in the dark and away from the light, then you can do so- but if the plant dies, its not because the light wanted to punish the plant. The plant died because you removed it from its life source.

Here's another analogy: If Bob drinks too much and one day his body gives up, you cant say that bob's body gave up because God punished him. Rather, Bob's body gave up as a consequence of the abuse- which is not the natural path/ activity that the body is used to in the first place

As I said before- most of the evils in this world are man made and could be solved/ prevented if we haven't been so selfish.

6: We are held accountable for our actions but God IS responsible.

This is one of the most hilarious things that I've heard. If you are accountable for your own actions, then you must be responsible. Why do you have to throw it to God when things get ****ty. God ain't a doormat.

[Edited by iamthe_eggman on 01-28-2004 at 09:40 PM]

[alucard0941]

This is by far the most popular page on the site. Look in one day 40+ posts. It took me at least four days for my post to be 40+. Good job Finger Cruncher, I like how you did not make a generic post on guitar but a personal type of thread.

[Unshouted your post -eggman]

[Edited by iamthe_eggman on 01-28-2004 at 10:24 PM]

[Pantallica1]

Originally posted by SPL
Satanism simply means that you live your life to a different set of moral standards than Christians do. A set of moral standards is what religion, in its core, is all about.
Then how can Satanists but Christians?

And as for this comment...

Originally posted by Pantallica1
Atheism means that we would have evolved from monkeys, so that throws me out of being an atheist right there. I don't want to think about my great grand daddy being a monkey!!

... all I can do is laugh really.(like you laugh with a comedian) Atheism and evolution theory have not much to do with eachother. Atheism just believes that there is no god, consequently there can be no god that is responsible for life on earth, which is why athiests tend to prefer logical thinking(evolution theory) over stories about how somehow everything in the universe was created in 7 days...

Christians can just as well believe that evolution is something god is in charge of.

As for myself, I'm a humanist/atheist who keeps his opinions on the matter to himself because he knows better. ;-)

Yeah, well, I try. I was just saying that most "atheist" I've run across seem to turn to evolution as their primary logic behind not beleiving in God. I don't think we evolved from monkeys at all, just my opinion.

As for me, I don't really know what I beleive. I think there's a God, and everything I can't prove is just faith to me. Sounds good to me. I think there are natural phenomena that people (doctors/scientists/experts) can't prove. We call it a miracle, but it had to happen for some reason.

It's an interesting discussion...


Oh yeah, SPL, were you laughing with me or at me? I was trying to be funny, not ignorant. :P

[SPL]

Originally posted by Pantallica1
Oh yeah, SPL, were you laughing with me or at me? I was trying to be funny, not ignorant. :P

I assumed you weren't being serious, that's why I added the "like you laugh with a comedian." ;)

But, some people actually ARE that ignorant, which kind of frightens me... lol

[chucklivesoninmyheart]

The fool...God isn't a doormat,but it isn't our job to get him 'of the hook' when things turn to sh*t.He dosn't need our help OR our belief...if god is god,then he will exist and go about his will whether or not we have faith.Also,in ALL versions and translations of the bible ive read it says evil,not 'trials and tests'...it clearly says EVIL...if you can direct me to a translation where 'trials and tests' are substituted for evil,please inform me.Why is god responsible?We are his creation...why wouldn't he be?If I rolled a car down a hill and it killed some kids on the way down,I would be held responsible...what If I knew which kids it would hit and planned it...I would definitley be held responsible.Check bible-truths again and more in depth to find why we are held accountable...I forget,but that dude explains it.

As for evolution,we havn't been on this earth nearly long enough to evolve to our current state.Lets assume our 'root' mammal evolved from bacteria or smaller mammal 30 million years ago(pending a long re-proccess from the extinction of dinosuars 65 million years ago).remnants of our progressing states of proccess should/would be scatterd under bedrock and sediment...why arn't our primitive states forensics existint?The popular medium for our evolution(monkeys,chimps and gorillas)are still existant with no change in structure from the earliest fossils to now.There is especially no time for our different races to take form.Evolution is a theory of a long proccess based on a young earth(and young universe at that).There has been NO proof of anything evolving from a former state of being over time...adapting yes,but its base remains the same.A certain bacteria reproducing while increasing tolerence to antibiotics over time isn't evolution...it simply adapts to conditions which are expected from over exposer.Insects adapt to change in climate,location e.c.t as well,but they dont make any leaps and bounds in structure.

Also,what the actual length of time 7 days of creating is for god is debatable,since our 'day' was incredibly longer during the formation and cooling of the earth.Also
Eternity,forever and ever,and everlasting are mis-translated from aonian(greek) or 'eon' in the king james bible...an age with a beginning and an end.

Just a theory I had...The bible speaks of giants roaming the land before god flooded the earth...could this be reffering to dinosaurs?I'm not sure,but I think its an interesting thought.

I dont believe without proving(with reasonable doubt)and I dont attempt to prove or uncover proof without reason to believe.I certainly don't believe in god to explain what can't be explained by science.Also Jesus was a real person(even common history shows us that)and while some speculate the real events through his life were different from what the scriptures say,he is among the only men ever to really claim they were God,live by it and die by it for the sake to bear the sins of men...of course that dosn't mean jump from the roof blindley or anything,but its ultimitley unique and unrivaled by any mere martyr,philisophical prophet or unseen spirit.

As for the beginning subject...satanists believe in self worship/empowerment.They dont pray to the 'devil' and from all that ive read,have no real stance on life after death.A pretty lame 'religion' like all the social crutches people use to stand on.

[Edited by chucklivesoninmyheart on 01-28-2004 at 10:27 PM]

[finger_cruncher]

Ahhh, look at the havoc I've created. :) There is no salvation. There is nothing after this.

God = crowd control, a man-made (or to be more politically correct, human-made) deception to instill fear in the masses. God is feared. God prevents humans from being savages. Our life is meaningless. I still enjoy it though. 'Godlessness' doesn't mean we should go around raping and pillaging though. Besides, if this is the only life, you don't want to spend it behind bars. ;) It is possible to maintain morals without religion/God. There are still 'rights' and 'wrongs'.


My work here is done. muahahahahahaahaha...

[chucklivesoninmyheart]

LOL...God dosn't instill 'if I do or dont do this,I'll go to HELL!"...thats religion...religion is manmade.

Religion is a social crutch.We all have a consciense(some to a higher degree than others)..thats what keeps us 'decent' and not complete savages raping and killing through life...

even cannibals,ancient barbarians and vikings e.c.t had some standards.

[Seve420]

Originally posted by the fool

i've said this so many times to people but even evolution contradicts itself if you take a look at it. Just look for instance mutations. The human body is a very fragile body- at the time before conception, so many things are happening that even a slight change or mutation such as an extra chromosome would potentially make the child abnormal.
Just one good, healthy mutation is very hard to come by. Imagine then how it was possible for humans to have evolved from monkeys with so many "healthy or good mutations" in just a a course of a couple of hundreds of millions of years. The odds are close to impossible.

Also, evolution tends to favor those mutations that enable us to adapt at environments tend to be preserved. If this is the case, then why didn't we develop small heads? In the pre historic times- in the abscence of doctors and education etc. many mothers have died of childbirth because of the child's big head. why didn't our heads mutate to smaller ones? evolution is simply a theory that scientists use to explain the unknown- it is no different from religion. Some philosophers say that religion was born out of man's means to explain the unknown. Since both are made by humans, they can't be perfect. they're also doomed to fail.

What you just wrote contradicts. You said that a 'healthy' mutation is rare, implying that mutations are totally random and no one controls them, which is true, but then you say 'why didn't our heads mutate into smaller ones?' suggesting that humans almost had a choice in the matter.

It's pretty simple to see how we still have big heads. First, the reason that humans are who we are, is because of our large brains, which inturn caused large heads because of evolution.

When a mother who dies during child birth and the large headed child survives, the 'large headed' trait or allele survives with it. If that child then has viable offspring, the 'large headed' trait still remains in that gene pool for another generation and that allele is still as frequent, even if the mother dies.

Babies also have their skull in fragments so their head isn't rigid when born, allowing them to be 'squeeze' out.

About humans evolving form apes. It was stated previously in this thread that 97.6% of our DNA the same as chimapanzees. I don't see how 2.7% of our DNA couldn't be mutated and passed on over hundreds of millions of years. It isn't all 'healthy' DNA either. There are sh*t loads of genetic disorders like haemophilia, sickle cell anemia, cystic fibrosis, colour blindness and dwarfism that are passed of from generation to generation.

Read Darwin's stuff about natural selection. He believed in god and religion but also believed inherited traits were passed on from generation to generation causing evolution. It's pretty funny though, that he had to travel to the Galapagos Islands and see the different species of finches in different environments to discover natural selection when the Peppered Moth, mentioned before by aiwass, was just miles away from his home.

[the fool]

chucklivesonmyheart

i respect your opinion. this is truely one of the problems- with religion- the friggin translations! See, its because of this that there's so many subdivisions in Christianity. If you want to see the that evil meant trials- not as the "absolute evil." I suggest you research real books by scholars about the real translation of the bible from Aramaic. There's been a lot of crap in the internet lately.

Seve 420

My example is supposed to be to support my statement that evolution is contradictory. When all is said and done, evolution is simply about mutations and survival of the fittest. I said that a'healthy' mutation is rare- and yes, mutations are totally random and no one controls them. I simply used the example of the baby's head mutating into smaller ones as an example that evolution is wrong. If a baby's head was the leading cause of mortality rate in mothers, then according to evolution, this trait or characteristic shouldn't pass on. Look at the case of sickle cell anemia. Because Malaria was killing a lot of folks in Africa, some people there develop a phenomenon known as sickle cells which helps them survive malaria. These folks never had a choice to have this ability but according to evolution, it just happened and the trait survived because it is the trait that enables them to survive in those kinds of condition. Now, I'm just wondering- if this is possible, then in the name of evolution, it should have been also possible for humans to have little heads. The interesting thing about all this, is that although it looks like humans almost have a choice in the matter (although they really don't)- there seems to be some intelligent process that is behind with this evolution theory that these materisalistic scientists propose. If you read your Darwin and his friend Dawkins, you will discover that both of these guys found evolution fascinating that they feel there is an intelligence to it. And some folks identify this intelligence as God.

Reagarding your comment:

"Babies also have their skull in fragments so their head isn't rigid when born, allowing them to be 'squeeze' out."

Pardon me, but this seems to be quite silly. I think, its the other way round. I think it's because of the fact that the bones in a baby's head is underdeveloped that you don't squeeze the baby's head out. If you don't believe me, ask your local doctor.

[the fool]

finger cruncher:

I think this is more accurate:

"CONCEPT of" God = crowd control, a man-made (or to be more politically correct, human-made) deception to instill fear in the masses. God is feared. God prevents humans from being savages.

And believe me, when all else fails- I can't stress this enough, people will revert to a religion of some sort.

[the fool]

Quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by chucklivesoninmyheart

even cannibals,ancient barbarians and vikings e.c.t had some standards.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And they were very religious based too, may i add.

[noticingthemistake]

I think religion in it's barest definition is something to believe in. Your religion is stating what you believe in, not who you are. Even if your a nilihist and you don't believe in anything, you still have a believe. The thing I hate about religion is people think it can justify wrong doing. Everyone has the capacity to do good or do wrong. I denounce the worldly christian believe because of all the atrocities in the name of god, like crusades, and wars. Also the way that someone who is christian looks at you when you don't believe exactly what they believe. The stroy "if you don't believe exactly what I say you should believe you suffer in eternity" message is weak. As long as your a decent person and you do what is right by yourself, everything is cool. I think if jesus did come back, alot of the people who are christians would be struck down. Afterall, they break more of there own rules than anyone else. Serial killers kill in the name of god, world leaders kill in the name of god. If god is such a good person don't you think he/she would be pist.

[chucklivesoninmyheart]

Noticingthemistake...theres a verse that justifies what your saying(as far as doing things in gods name like killing,wars,missionary stuff e.c.t.)

Its something like "and they said,Lord we cast our demons in your name,we prophesised in your name...and the lord said,depart from me workers of iniquity,I never knew ye."

Something like that...Of course the lord knows these people(I knew ye before you were born),but dosn't recognize them 'in his purpose/will'.

Yes,many 'professing' christians will have alot to answer for.There works will be made manifest and be burnt up by fire(God),but they themselves will be saved.

I know of many 'christians' that have nothing but hate for fellow believers and non-believers.If you want gossip,just go to your local 'christian' based church...its horrid.

I believe and trust Jesus,but I sure dont go to church.Keeping the sabbath(sunday)is old testament and Jesus made no priority to urge people to church.
I never do ANYTHING in Gods name...eph 1.11 says "all works in accordance with his will"
so I'm convinced I should leave his will to HIM.


[Edited by chucklivesoninmyheart on 01-29-2004 at 12:36 PM]

[aiwass]

@ the fool:

About the origin of Lucifer (the fallen angel): Come to think of it, I'm not sure where in the Bible it says so, if in the Bible at all. However, I'm positive it was am actual passage. Maybe it was an independent scripture or something, parts that were left out of the Bible (I know a lot of things were). Or maybe I heard about it in religion class (went to a Christian school, years ago). I'll do some research.

[sambob]

Congratulations, you are the buddha.

No really.

I moderate a couple forusm on http://www.totse.com, if you've never checked it out.. its like a haven for people that think they're smarter than they are. The religion forum there... has threads EXACTLY like this one multiple times a week.

People are so stupid.

[chucklivesoninmyheart]

The best(most accurate)Bible seems to be a concordance...it uses properly the greek word 'eonian'(age) in place of 'forever and ever','eternal' and 'everlasting'.Thats the biggest fault in the King James(the use of forever and ever e.c.t.).

The greeks didnt even have a word that meant 'forever' or 'eternity'.

Anyway...check out bible-truths.com aiwass,he talks about the origin of satan and lucifer e.c.t.

[chucklivesoninmyheart]

Nobody's claiming to be smarter sambob.I sure don't know much and enjoy hearing opinions that rival what I do know...that leads to further knowlege(as long as its not a vicious ignorance circle/cycle)...

Totse is cool though.Thats right!I submitted a 'bad idea'(or at least thats where it most likley will be posted).Wonder if its on there yet...well,gotta go check!

[sambob]

They may not be claiming it, but I'm pretty sure they're thinking it :p

They always do..

[aiwass]

@ chuck: Thanks for clearing that up. I found what I was looking for on that website. As for the "good angel gone bad" part, there still remains some dispute. The author of the site, however, is not very objective as to which side of the argument to defend. Basically his argument is that God doesn't make mistakes. For a non-follower, on the other hand, the credulity of this statement is different.

[dinell2]

There is black and white, men and women, night and day, good and evil. It make sense... without one, would there be the other?

[the fool]

Quote:
------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by noticingthemistake

I think religion in it's barest definition is something to believe in. Your religion is stating what you believe in, not who you are. Even if your a nilihist and you don't believe in anything, you still have a believe.....

------------------------------------------------------------

I truely agree with you statement. that's why i always believe that if everything else fails, people will always revert back to a religion of some sort. You will have your fair share of good and bad since religion is not perfect but even so, its one of those things that you just either learn to live or hate because it will always be there. And you are right about that one- religion can make certain evils look right. But I don't see why we should condemn real christianity for it. The crusades and the war, the jews and muslims that were massacred- although done in the name of christianity, are not the real works of real christians. the bible never promoted killing. These folks are simply assholes hiding under the cloak of christianity. That's why I don't condemn christianity. I only condemn those who pretend to be one- especially those who kill in the name of christ. The Bible has warned of this. That's why in the end, when these people present themselves to God, the lord will say to them that I do not know you- they will be ignored by the Lord.

Like you, I'm also very pissed off with certain christians- The way some christians look at you when you don't believe exactly what they believe and all the threat about hell and stuff if you don't follow. Real christians don't do this.
I strongly believe that the christian god is not like this. Rather, i c the christian god as very loving, forgiving, and merciful father. Whatever hell awaits for us is something that we create for ourselves. Read my post about the TAO- i've provided a very good analogy of this.

@ sambob

if you are referring to me, i don't feel/ think like I'm smarter than myself or anybody else. i am merely asking questions- not stating answers- just like a good philosopher. even the stuff that i say here isn't even mine. i'm just sharing the works of many philosophers and theologians that i've read. i claim no absolute knowledge. like everyone else, i'm still in my own personal pursuit of a god.

[the fool]

Quote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by chuckylivesonmyheart

"Its something like "and they said,Lord we cast our demons in your name,we prophesised in your name...and the lord said,depart from me workers of iniquity,I never knew ye."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

LOL! why didn't i see this? chuckylivesonymyheart, you nailed the passage that i'm talking about! thnx for looking that up.

[chucklivesoninmyheart]

Aiwass,theres no doubt he(the guy at bible-truths.com)is not objective.A god that makes mistakes isn't much of a god...not a god at all in fact(at most mabey a higher being,but no god).

Unless you believe what the bible says is true and believe in a god/jesus in the first place,none of its truth is credible.

[chucklivesoninmyheart]

Good(according to the bible)did exist without evil.Evil is simply anything 'against' God.God must have always had a 'knowlege' of evil,but nothing was 'against' him before he created his adversary(as far as we know).
In contrast it would seem that evil can't exist without good...biblicaly anyway.

[pricklepuss]

i only just noticed this thread, its a long read!
without dragging all the arguments back up... has anyone taken into account that the whole christian belief system is based on hundreds of years of people (usually an 'educated' minority in charge of the uneducated majority) using, and often abusing, a book that has been rewritten/mistranslated more times than we've all had hot dinners.

now, i have no great affity with any side of this argument, but people seem to put alot of faith in what can only be described as the longest game of chinese whispers in human history.

i think the bible is full of some very wise guidelines for how a moral society should function, but it is very difficult to fully trust/take as law the ideas and teachings that have had so long and so many people to corrupt them.


belief systems can be seen to change and evolve in the same way that animal species do. christianity has thrived through being misused by those in society with the power/education/influence.
heres a little known fact for you, when newton discovered that white light was made up of the 'colours of the rainbow' he classified 6 colours, red/orange/yellow/green/blue/violet. as 6 is the devils number, the church made him add a colour, indigo, so that the rainbow had 7 colours, 7 being a holy number. we are still taught that the rainbow has 7 colours even though it was a lie forced by the church.

food for thought...

[sambob]

Note: I said enlightened, not smarter.

And I wasn't talking to anyone in particular, but I'm sure what I said applies to someone in here.

[Seve420]

Originally posted by the fool

If a baby's head was the leading cause of mortality rate in mothers, then according to evolution, this trait or characteristic shouldn't pass on.


Reagarding your comment:

"Babies also have their skull in fragments so their head isn't rigid when born, allowing them to be 'squeeze' out."

Pardon me, but this seems to be quite silly. I think, its the other way round. I think it's because of the fact that the bones in a baby's head is underdeveloped that you don't squeeze the baby's head out. If you don't believe me, ask your local doctor.


First of all, the size a baby's head really isn't the cause of mothers dying during birth, it is the size of their pelvis but I'll continue to use your reason, the head size, for this post to prove my point.

In evolution, the only way a trait doesn't get passed onto the next generation is if the organisms who have that trait don't have viable offspring. 'Good' traits that allow them to adapt well to their environment gives them a better chance of surviving and producing offspring, that is how 'good' traits become more frequent. A large head doesn't stop someone from being able to survive and have children (unless of course they may be seen as less attractive, but there is usually someone who would sleep with them). That is why the trait survives.

The same applies to pelvis size. They still survive and have children (or of course just the one) no matter what size pelvis they have.

About the baby heads being in fragments. I put squeeze in inverted commas for lack of a better word. I didn't mean that the baby's head gets squashed but rather it can slightly flex and become more of the shape of vaginal entrance. If you've ever seen a baby straight after birth, it's head isn't perfectly round and slightly out of shape, which varies from child to child. Some times they come out with cone shaped heads and even the bones in the head cross over.

My mother is a nurse and has delivered several babies and taken care of many more soon after birth. That is why I know. I suggest YOU see your local doctor.

[PonyOne]

Damn, I missed the earlier focus of the argument...

I beg to differ in the community of rock musicians. I'm a practicing Jew who believes in God. I don't believe in the "one true path" that people speak of; I believe in people finding their spiritualities and paths to enlightenment/God in their own way. I was raised by a devoutly Catholic mom and a very forcefully Episcopal father, and grew up not having a choice as to what or how to practice. I was probably about 8 when I decided the New Testament was bunk; whether I am right or wrong is anyone's guess but I feel it is hypocritical to live a lie, and go on pretending like I believe in Christ, who didn't really fulfill any messianic promises.

You remember the last time you turned on the TV and saw a story about someone killing someone? About a serial rapist? About the Bush administration? Corporations stripping the world of itself? Some messiah. If he was the Messiah I'll just kill myself now and get it over with.

I do not subscribe greatly to Eastern thought; I believe that Buddha's middle path is more alienating than any other religion out there. To curb ones emotions, both positive and negative, is to spit in the face of what makes us humans. The American interpretation of Buddhism appeals to yuppies and their kids, who find a sudden emptiness at having a new Range Rover in their driveway every year, summering in the riviera and just generally being a consumer whore. It replaces the big screen TV with a yoga mat, and the McDonald's cheeseburger with some raw tofu, and voila! A sense of purpose, in that they are striving for an equilibrium, as opposed to an excess.

True Buddhism requires a 100% total absolute right-down-the-middle approach to EVERYTHING IN LIFE. No thanks. I like feeling all of my emotions as they come. But I do believe that the yin-yang is an interesting concept; that light does not exist without dark nor dark without light, hence their equality in mass, and their inclusion of the other in themselves (the little dots in the larger part of each half).

I have mulled over this quite a bit, and long ago (like when I was 12) came to the same conclusion that you have: that most of the people who are Satanists are being reactionary to fundamentalist Christianity. Many of the people I know who REALLY get into the Satanist sect are people who grew up in a super-right-wing household or community and got spurned by it in some way, whether it was being molested by the lady who ran the bible study when they were 14, or it was simply watching daddy, who always preached honesty and unrequited love and justice for all, not say anything when he got an extra dollar in change at the super market.

"Goths" and "Satanists" are wholly different, and are not necessarily symbiotic; though Satanism implies a fascination with darkness and death and suffering, having a goth image does not require satanism. I know a girl who is a devout Saudi Muslim who is also very into goth culture (she doesn't show as much skin as your average goth chick though). Alastair Crowley and Edgar Allen Poe were very gothic in the sense that they were eroticized, death-obsessed poets who wrote of misery and suffering, but neither were satanic. Pretty much anyone can be a Goth; go to a goth club and you'll see what I mean. To me Satanism does still indicate a path to God; it is something that gives meaning and happiness to those who practice it and it fulfills their desire to be enlightened spiritually.

Hell and Satan as we know it/them only really came to being in the middle ages as a vessel to scare people anyway. It worked quite well, especially in the Mediterranean/Latin world, and also helped fuel the mass shift toward Christianity that made the Vatican as powerful as it was. Yawn. At least there's probably TV in the first three or four layers of hell, which are the ones I'll probably end up in, if it does exist. In fact, Dante's description of hell, which is what the modern West bases its interpretation on, is actually pretty tame. The Muslim interpretation is a lot scarier. I would prefer to be stuck in a never ending forest of trees than to suckle puss from the bloated teat of the demonic woman-headed pig beast, thank you.

Honestly I feel as though most Aetheists are as laughable as the proverbial Christian suburbanite who turns to Satan and Hot Topic as a means of rebellion. For those of you who are interested in psychiatry and inverstigative arts, notice how often you will hear Aetheists say things mocking toward God; "Hey God, why didn't you stop Hitler?" and the like, or, as exemplified in songs by Everclear, Tricky and Sarah McLaughlin, songs that are directed as though they are being spoken to God in the form of a letter or conversation: more an acknowledgement of God's existence, followed by a "Nyah-nyah, I don't have to listen to you" sort of attitude. Most of the people I know who adopt aetheism seem to thrive on this attitude; the revelling of making people who believe in God feel stupid or inferior.

For the record, I'm a 20-year old high school dropout who hasn't attended much college but will begin this September, and plans to ultimately be a lawyer. I'd go on longer, but my fiance is whining at me to "come cuddle." Good night.

[the fool]

Seve 420

You are right- the pelvis is also a leading cause of mother mortality. If I can clearly remember, Alan Alford, this author of the book that I used to read has this argument against evolution and I believe he states that it's both the size of the pelvis and the huge head in babies.

Reading your post, you said that "a large head doesn't stop someone from being able to survive and have children (unless of course they may be seen as less attractive, but there is usually someone who would sleep with them)."- but you seem to miss an explanation explaining how a large head doesnt stop someone from being able to survive. All you did was progress into the statement "'Good' traits that allow them to adapt well to their environment gives them a better chance of surviving and producing offspring, that is how 'good' traits become more frequent." Hence, I have no idea how you've come up with the idea that "a large head is a good trait" because you didn't explained it. You just said it was good. Here is what I have to say. Since a child's big head and the mother's small pelvis is one of the major causes of mothers and baby's death, i don't see how- in evolutionary terms, these characteristics can be classified as good traits because it doesn't help them adapt to the environment- it kills them! How can dead mothers and dead babies reproduce and pass on traits if they're dead? Hence, it cannot be a "good trait." It must be a bad trait that must disappear in the evolutionary process to increase the chances of both the mother and child's survival. Now, all I'm asking- just as Allan Alford proposes is that, if evolution is right, why didn't we just change or evoloved into something with small heads and and bigger pelvises (for the women) when these traits seem to give us more success for survival.

[the fool]

PonyOne

I also believe in people finding their spiritualities and paths to enlightenment/God in they're own way. Like you, I was raised in a home of diverse religions- I was raised by a catholic mother (who didn't go to church LOL) and a Protestant (Lutheran) father. Then, on my mother's side are the Catholics who go to Church, some are hardcore Catholics, some so and so, and this weird uncle who is a convert of the Cult of Mary. Then on the fathers' side- the nth degree cousin side- there are the friggin religious extremists or otherwise known as the Seventh Day Adventists-I've never seen so vast and amazingly musical people, but I've also never seen a more pathetic, screwed up christians-except for the mormons and certain catholics i guess. As a kid, I always had this interest for God and the metaphysical. Having witnessed so many deaths as a kid, I started thinking about death and how it affects us all. It made me think of my own, and in thinking about it, led me to think whether there is a life after death. As a kid, I read the bible extensively and in doing so, found many faults in religions. I always got into trouble with my catholic teachers, debated with priests and pastors for what i thought was right. I have enlightened quite a number of heads when I was a kid, but soon, I got tired debating and preaching because I felt that I wasn't doing a very good job following what i preach. i felt like a hippocrite so I decided to keep my beliefs to my own. That way, if what I preached was wrong, I'd only have myself as a liability, and I wouldn't have to be held responsible for other's souls.

When I was a teenager in highschool, a teacher noted my knowledge of the bible and guided me to philosophy. Hence, I started reading the many works of Plato, Aristotle, and stories about Socrates- and this progress to the many other topics in philosophy like the stoicism, metaphysics, fatalists, existentialists, etc and the works of the many enlightenment period authors like Descartes, Hobbes, voltaire etc.

Going to University, besides doing more philosophy, and meeting other people of diverse backgrounds, I started delving deeper into the other religions like Judaism and a bit about Jewish mysticism, Buddhism, Islam, Aetheists, other subdivisions of Christianity, mysticism, and ancient cults like the cult of Dionysus, Cult of Mary, and THE WAY. Since I was taking Psychology- and our professors discouraged the belief in a soul, I also got into materialism and science.

My quest for a God and life after death had lead me to so much. But I still don't claim that I know a lot and i have THE ANSWER- maybe just more educated and enlightened. I've learned how religions evolved and how people understand religions in many ways- religious/ metaphysical, philosophical/ rational, skepticism, scientifical/ materialistic, and psychological etc.- but I still find that I have yet to arrive at THE ANSWER. I felt more enlightened but I don't feel like a know all.

Personally I believe in a God and I profess myself a Catholic- but not the Catholic that people commonly know, and not the catholic that I abhorr myself. Rather, my understanding of God and my religion is a combination of all the knowledge that i've accumulated over the years- eastern and western religions, metaphysical and scientifical etc. Just to give you an idea of some of the stuff that I believe- I think all religions embody an element of the TRUTH just as myths, in its most basic definition, is also one that contains an element of the truth. Now, regarding to the rest of my personal beliefs, I shall now choose to keep it to myself because I don't want to go into further trouble and debates. I will just share the thoughts of the many authors that I've read- hopefully, you guys will find it enlightening just as i had.

[SPL]

Originally posted by PonyOne
Honestly I feel as though most Aetheists are as laughable as the proverbial Christian suburbanite who turns to Satan and Hot Topic as a means of rebellion.

When you get raised in a family that adheres to a certain religion it is really easy for young people to fall into this kind of "rebelious" behavior. At a certain age that behavior is just really normal, while they're just looking for their own truths like anyone else.
I'm assuming most atheists and satanists you know of, and think are laughable, are probably in their late teens and/or early twenties... Wait till they mature a bit, and realize the kind of BS that they are spewing, most likely they'll start making a lot more sense without feeling the need to piss off people who don't agree with them.

[Seve420]

AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH *Gasp* AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

Not all children die at birth when the mother does. That is how the trait can survive. And I mentioned before that having a larger head was because of the larger brain, I can't see how having a smaller brain is seen as better.

I'm sick of this. I can't see the point of going on about this anymore.

[the fool]

@ seve420

"Not all children die at birth when the mother does. That is how the trait can survive."

That is why, I am amazed as to how such a bad trait can still survive. It is against evolution. LOL, pardon me. i'm so tempted to comment and explain the deal about this and how a smaller head can be better. but you're right. there's no point going about this anymore LOL. i'm getting tired of writing anyways. but if you would still like to know, i'll gladly talk about it. right now, i think i'm going to give myself a rest.

[PonyOne]

SPL,

You are right, most of the aetheists I know are in their early 20's. And I figure that most of them are just in a stage in which they still feel the need to shock what they percieve as the mainstream. What I think is sad is that I do meet a good number of people well into their adult years who continue to have the immature, "i'm right, you're wrong, you just believe in fairy tales, you're an idiot" mentality when it comes to religion. And again, in many cases these people seem to be "in protest" of God more so than believing that God doesn't exist in whatever form.

the fool,

I was raised as an Episcopalian and then, when i was 11, my parents just kind of up and decided that I would be a Catholic (it probably had something to do with my dad's conversion to Catholicism, due to personal conflicts with other Episcopalians, which just affirmed to me what I'd always expected: that his faith was there simply because it was what he'd been raised with). I never fell in with Catholicism, and I definitely know of the distinction between Catholics you're hinting at; the more liberally-minded, open-minded logical folks who happen to believe in Jesus, and the bleeding heart fanatics who follow the daily "prophecies" from a group of bleeding heart fanatics in Medjugorie and what the pope says down to a T, who also can't have a life outside of Jesus and church, who would better be served taking up with a right-wing evangelical church.

The bottom line is that spirituality and beliefs must be from ones own heart, regardless of how you do or don't follow God, and not because it's whatever is trendy, or because your parents or friends or whoever does it.

[aiwass]

@ the fool:

I am an atheist. Have been since I was about 5 (having been raised in a fanatic Christian kindergarten, I had had it with all that was religious), now I'm 16. My brother, age 13, has NEVER believed in God as far as I know, and both my parents are atheists (although both also previously Christian). My father's view is a scientific one, in that he simply sees no reason to believe in God, and finds answers in science rather than religion, while my mother's view is a more hateful one, as she simply despises religion for what it has done to the world. Interestingly, my mother (having the strongest opposition to religion of the two) was brought up as a Christian - and believed -, and her grandfather was a minister of the slightly fanatic kind.

My personal view is similar to my mother's. I do not concern myself with whether God exists. I see plenty of arguments for, as well as against His existence. I do however feel that religion causes unnecessary turmoil in an already war-ridden and turbulent world, and that if God really does exist, yet allows people to commit such atrocities in His (or others') name, then he is no God of mine. The question I asked myself, was this: If I die, and must answer to God (upon confrontation with his existence), will I recant? Having lived my entire life denying Him, would I not be a coward and a hypocrite to embrace Him at the last moment? My personal view is that atheism is for the better, regardless of the existence of a deity. There are too many "truths" to be considered, and each one of these is based upon the notion of "I'm right; you're wrong". Is there a God? Maybe. But in order for humans to coexist peacefully, it is my personal conviction that all notions of religious "truth" must be eliminated.

Many Christians say that they do not try to convert other people. Now, I admire that kind of tolerance, and many Christians do make an effort to maintain a liberal outlook on today's multi-faceted society, but a sad fact is that most Christians do very much do so, simply because it is their duty as Christians. The Bible explicitly states (in the word of Jesus) that every good Christian should do what he/she can to convert non-believers, and it is in essence a sin to make no effort to convert someone who does not believe, as they are on a road to perdition, and must be saved. In God's eyes, it's sort of like watching somebody commit suicide, without trying to intervene.

The fact that most religions then share the above mentioned notion ("This is truth; all else is lie"), makes for an interesting math/statistics problem.

[the fool]

@ aiwass

I understand that many Christians say that they do not try to convert other people. LOL, I get that all the time from the Seventh Day Adventists. They're like trying to be nice and all- but behind the niceness and the "i'm not trying to cvonvert you crap," they're very subtlely trying to convert you to be like them. But although I propse myself a christian and a catholic- as i said before, i am not the typical catholic/ christian that you know. I am a Catholic Christian in a sense that I believe in God and Jesus Christ and that I try, as humanly as possible, to be good and not to be a nuisance to others. When it comes to the sacraments and some of the catholic dogma/beliefs /practices- that's where i begin to differ. I seriously think that Catholicism and most of Christianity has deviated from what the real Christians should be like- the one intended by Christ. It has turned more into a corporate business and a political institution. But just because everyone is screwing up doesnt mean i have to blame Christianity for it. You have to understand that these people are not real christians- they're simply a bunch of assholes trying to hide in the name of christ and the christian religion. It's like this analogy: Suppose you have a family with brothers and sisters. And this family is the best family in the world until one day, your brothers and sisters starts messing up. Would it be fair to blame your parents for it and change to a different family just because your siblings screwed up? Hence, I am still a Catholic and don't blame God.

As for the fact that you're an aetheist- i truely understand and respect that- and I don't condemn you for it like other christians would do. People define God or their reality- whatever you call it in many different ways- and I understand them very well. From my quest for The ANSWER, i've encountered many ways in which people try to define their own reality- whether it be religion, philosophy, or science. I'm also a graduating psychologist. We're forced not to believe in such a thing as the mind or the soul- only the brain exists so I should know! LOL. But as hardcore and as factual as science is. I still chose to believe in a God for many reasons. And one of them is the fact that I've got nothing to lose. In the end, when i die, it wouldn't make a difference if there's no God. I'd simply cease to exist together with my emotions and consciousness and the abscence of God wouldn't even matter or make a difference to me. On the other hand, If I'm dead and there is a God, then I'm actually better off, because as my God promises, I shall live again. It's that simple. I forgot which philosopher said this, but it's better to be on the safe side and I'm just playing it safe. Now, some people who don't believe that such a being as God exists will think that believing in a God is a life of deception- but I tend to disagree. In a scientific and psychological sense-"deception" is not necessarily an evil. It can be good. For instance, we have certain ideologies that we keep intact even though it is not reflective of the real world because it maintains our self esteem, principles, and certain relationships with other people and our relationship to the world intact. It's also due to these ideologies that we know of things such as faith and hope and these other stuff which makes the world a little brighter- This is what separated Tolstoy from Schopenhauer I believe. I can go on and on- but believing in a God, even if he didnot exist is beneficial. And I think, just as religion is human nature- it is a necessity. As Berkeley puts it: Even if God didnt exist, we would have to create one.

As PonyOne puts it "The bottom line is that spirituality and beliefs must be from ones own heart, regardless of how you do or don't follow God." CS Lewis- My favorite author, used to be an aetheist for quite a long time until he converted to christianity and became agruably the best defender of the christian faith. You're very young and the road is still long- there's so many things that you have yet to encounter. It's not my job to convert you. You'll find it on your own. In the end, we'll all find what the ultimate reality is one way or another. In believing in a God, I just don't see how I can lose.

[chucklivesoninmyheart]

I had many feelings like you Aiwass.I thought for so long 'If theres a God and he lets this world suffer such horrors then I want no part in such a sick being'.After studying the scriptures I came to realize that Jesus never concerned himself with the physical...but instead spiritual and made it a point to show that his spiritual things are much more real than tangible,touchable matter.His apostles actually "followed him no more" becuase they simply could not grasp anything other than the tangible.They could not trust in Jesus that this life and the things of this world are just 'flashes in the pan'.

One man asked Christ "what must I do to be saved?",jesus said "leave/sell all that you have and follow me"...the man walked away sobbing...

Jesus meant much more meaning within this event.He was asking the man to disregard the tangible and trust/follow christ.The man walked away because he could not bear the thought of this life being insignificant to the one christ has prepared...All because he couldnt see or touch it.

The above in no way attempts to show that what Jesus says exists is there...it simply means to trust him.Yes,I mean faith...

[the fool]

@ chucklivesoninmyheart

That has been an on going battle for as long as I know- that "if god is good, then why is there evil/ or why does he allow evil." here's one of the possible solutions to it- but it will only work if you believe that there is such a thing as a free will, that Jesus Christ is the saviour, and the existence of the Holy spirit. if you don't believe in these things, then there is no point reading this because this answer will never work. this might sound silly but I think it's his gift of free will that prevents god from just changing everything for the good. No matter how badly God wants to interevene, he just can't because that would be violating his gift and his own rule. That's the reason why God gave you both a brain and free will- so you could figure things out your own and you can prove God that you're worthy. It's like this analogy. If your parents did everything for you all the time, can you say that you're world would be a better place? Ofcourse, the answer to this is NO. You would be acting like a spoiled brat, you will always be dependent on your parents, you won't be able to be self- sufficient, you will lose your chance to develop a sense of identity because everyone's doing everything for you, and you wouldn't be able to define yourself and your place in the world. Besides this, you will also miss certain things that only comes as a product of being independent and self efficient such as learning to value the fruits of your work, discipline, leadership skills, problem solving skills etc. The same could be said to God. God doesn't want to intervene with free will because he's giving you the chance to grow as an individual with a brain-and to put that brain in to good use. Of course there are times when we can't stand by ourselve alone- that's why God sent his son Jesus Christ as a guide, and the Holy Spirit to comfort and help. However, despite of all this help- it surprises me that many people still blame God for all the evils in the world, when it fact, most of the evil that happens in the world happens because of some people's desire to do evil, rather than good. As much as God wants to intervene he knows he can't because he would be violating his own law. But don't despair- there's a catch. Those people who are abusing their free will doing evil don't go ahead unpunished. There is such a thing as justice and it will be served. Religions differ on what kind of justice is this. some say hellfire and brimstone, death, karma etc. But I think they're destruction, punishment- whatever you want to call it will come to them as a result of their own doing. As I said before somewhere on page 7 of this thread-

"Free will exists. It is your choice whether you want to be under god's will or not. But here's the catch. In some religions, God is described as the TAO or the way or direction in which all else fall. If you choose to follow a a different path- you will be destroyed. And you will be destroyed not because God wants to punish/ destroy you. Rather, you are destroyed as a result of the consequences of your actions. Here's a good analogy for you: think of a plant. In order for a plant to grow, you have to put it in the direction of light. You can choose to put it in the path of the light or put it in the dark. If you choose to put it in the dark and away from the light, then you can do so- but if the plant dies, its not because the light wanted to punish the plant. Rather, the plant died because you removed it from its natural environment which is in the path of the light. The plant died because you took it away from its life source.

Here's another analogy: If Bob drinks too much and one day his body gives up, you cant say that bob's body gave up because God punished him. Rather, Bob's body gave up as a consequence of the abuse that he placed in his body. Alcohol is not the natural path, activity, substance that the body is used to be exposed regularly in the first place."

As I said before- most of the evils in this world are man made and could be solved/ prevented if we haven't been so selfish. I see no need to blame God. It would be like refusing to stand up for our own selves and blaming our parents and other people for our mistakes.

Also, think about it this way, if there is no God- or if the God that exists is an evil one, why does goodness still exist despite of all the evils in the world? Somehow there is still this force that exists that tries to promote balance, justice or homeostasis- whatever you want to call it, in the world. Therefore, there must be a just God.

[PonyOne]

Originally posted by aiwass
@ the fool:My personal view is that atheism is for the better, regardless of the existence of a deity. There are too many "truths" to be considered, and each one of these is based upon the notion of "I'm right; you're wrong". Is there a God? Maybe. But in order for humans to coexist peacefully, it is my personal conviction that all notions of religious "truth" must be eliminated.

On one level I most definitely agree with you. Christianity, Islam and Hinduism, amongst others, believe that they are the TRUTH. Judaism doesn't in the same sense; obviously, Jews place value in their faith as the true path for them, otherwise, they would not be, well, Jewish. On the other hand there is a mindset that dictates "Judaism works for me and Buddhism does not. So by the same rationale, to a Buddhist, Judaism is not going to work." And thus, we don't try to convert anyone. If people choose to convert that's okay, but, we aren't going to try and convince people that ours is THE TRUE path. I again state, I believe everyone follows their own true path. Or at least, they shoud, and they have the propensity to; in too many societies around the world, people only have exposure to one form of spirituality and are not allowed to even consider a different form of practice, so even though their faith doesn't really fit them, they loudly proclaim "I'M CATHOLIC! WWJD?" without actually believing 3/4 what their faith requires them to.

I think that the only wrong thing to state is that a different faith is wrong. Because as long as people find validity, sanctum, and life in it, that is its validation (for instance, your dad and science; not saying he follows it like a religion, but he probably finds solace in being able to see concrete proof of something's existence, and also to see the results of its discovery in real life.)

Honestly if I was not allowed to practice my faith, I would be pretty angry and depressed. And so would a lot of people around the globe. Eliminating religious doctrine would not solve anything and would foster an intolerance of cultures (most of which are based around religion). Look how happy the people of the Soviet Union were in an aetheist society, for example; there were definitely other forces at work but an ideology that says that there can be no faith goes against the grain of humanity. Notions of a single path must be eliminated, or at the very least, a mutual understanding of other people must be established; that would solve a good many problems.

[Cody_King]

I dont really think about what i am, I dont have any religion in my life, but I have good morals for my self, im a nice guy, and if i go to hell if there is one beacuse i didnt bow down to a non existant being that has never showed its self to me I dont think thats very swell. I think if there is a heaven I should be accepted beacuse i was a good person.

[the fool]

@ Cody_King

that's why i don't believe in a concept of hell as a sort of eternal punishment. i think that's just propaganda by the church to convert people into christianity. rather, hell i believe, is something that we create for ourselves, and it is the natural result of things when we don't follow the TAO. I have explained this on the previous page- if you dont mind reading it. its a pretty long post but i think it's helpful.

Many people think that God doesnt show himself to us, but i think he does in many ways. it's just our mind is so ditracted with the pains and the evils of the world, and all these materialism that we fail to see him sometimes- just as when a good friend suddenly commits one mistake, we tend to persecute that friend for that one mistake despite of the many good things that that person has done in the past. It's just a matter of faith and trust. As i strongly believe- you have nothing to lose.

Here's a theory of mine. If God is good, then all things good is of God. Even if you don't see a God, just keep on doing good and the fruit will one day learn of its tree :)

[b_hoves]

I am a Christian, however I do not try to force anything on anyone, God gave us free will so who am I to try to take that away?
I have been faced with questions and discussion like this before, and basically my argument always comes down to: ‘if I’m wrong then I’ve lived my life well and then there will be nothingness, but what if I’m right?’

[aiwass]

It's just that even if there is a God, the chances of Him being the Christian God are diminutive. Do you have any idea as to how many religions have claimed to be truth? No, not only the five world religions - hundreds, thousands even.

[the fool]

@ aiwas

but why is there a need to categorize god? i believe that god is universal- i think to label him as a christian god is to talk of god in a limited sense. even if he is a christian god, i'm sure he's not the wrathful evil god protrayed by christians who use the doctrine of hell and brimstone to convert followers. that is not the real christian god.

here's what i think. i strongly believe that all religions talk of the same god. the only reason (well, not the only reasons but they are possible reasons) why there are so many conflicts and differences in the idea of god is due to our differences in culture, differences in our ideals and perception, understanding of the divine and translation. That's why in my previous post, i said that all religions are like myths in a sense that they both tell a version or an embodiment of the truth. Think of this as an example- the idea of a dying and resurrecting god has been around way before we ever knew of christianity. There was the cult of Dionysus, and that of Osiris Dionysus, and that of bacchus just to give examples. These characters came from different nations and cultures, the surprising thing out of these stories is that although the story line is different, the main concept or element is always the same- they foretell of a dying and resurrecting god, just as many prophets in the old testament also foretold of a dying and resurrecting God. And as CS Lewis puts it, the amazing thing was that the myth came to life, just as the "word became flesh" through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

[b_hoves]

i know that the God of the three major religions are the same God, these religions are all use the old testament, and both Christianity and Islam use the new testament. The God of all these religion is not the fire and brimstone God that the Catholics, and some of the other churches, used early the century, in my opinion he is much more forgiving and doesn’t want any of us to go to ‘heaven’ and ‘hell’ (heaven and hell are in inverted comers because both of these are Islamic concepts, original Christians believed that the after life is just being with God).

[Edited by b_hoves on 02-03-2004 at 06:47 PM]

[Pantallica1]

Has anyone ever thought that maybe what we're in right now is Hell.

Think about it. The death, sickness, corruption, disease, starvation. Maybe this is Hell and we must suffer here first before we can live in Heaven.

Just a thought.

[the fool]

Possibly. As I mentioned before- we do make our own hells. Interesting isn't it?